3 ms·

It certainly is making me wonder about the supposed benefits of democracy. If our votes, even those of our elected representatives, are so easily manipulated,

It certainly is making me wonder about the supposed benefits of democracy. If our votes, even those of our elected representatives, are so easily manipulated, then what's the point? My question isn't entirely rhetorical. I'm hoping someone can talk me out of that conclusion.

jackyinger 1y ago
To the contrary, if voters are manipulated it is not a well functioning democracy. It is a farce of a democracy, the subtle manipulation just adds a veneer of legitimacy because it appears to be a democracy. Those who are manipulating people are the ones in power, not the citizens. Edit: I say subtle in the sense that those being manipulated are not particularly aware of being manipulated.
AndrewKemendo 1y ago
I’m afraid your conclusion is correct There has never been a representative democracy. Not in the US, not anywhere. So it’s impossible to say whether it’s a goal that’s with pursuit. The idea that one ever existed is also a fairy tale to be clear. This is the most globally “representative” system ever, if for no other reason than for the existence of global mobility. Despite global border protection, if you’re determined enough you can get anywhere. Truly. People will argue in a mealymouth way about whether any form of democracy is functional and “best of all bad systems” is typically the masters level refrain. It’s worth thinking beyond 20th century concepts like states
mediumsmart 1y ago
Democracy still is a good idea.
- hulitu 1y ago
  > Democracy still is a good idea. When they finnaly implement it. /s
- ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
  Only with an educated population. An uneducated population is more easily swayed by cults of personality which can lead to the rise of dictators as the people will accept and justify any behaviour from the leader of their tribe.
  - lm28469 1y ago
    "democracy is bad because it can lead to dictatorship" can't be a serious argument... Democracies are all flawed but theocracies, monarchies, oligarchies, &c. certainly aren't better when it comes to cult of personalities and serving their own tribes
    - rightbyte 1y ago
      > "democracy is bad because it can lead to dictatorship" can't be a serious argument... Heh you got a good point. People seem to expect way to much from their form of government and get desillusionized when it is not magic. Like, join a party and see how the sausage is made.
    - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
      > "democracy is bad because it can lead to dictatorship" can't be a serious argument... It's not and I didn't write, nor intend that. Educated voters are a pre-condition for democracy and without that, democracy fails. It's similar to how market knowledge is a pre-condition of free markets as otherwise markets favour the biggest trader.
- hoseja 1y ago
  Not with universal suffrage. And without it you need to aggresively curb revolutionary communist parasites.
hoseja 1y ago
The contest for the most efficient manipulation of the plebeians is where the elites are arbitraging their game nowadays. I suppose it's marginally better than constantly dying in their petty wars.
lm28469 1y ago
It's simple really, democracy isn't democracy if the voters aren't well informed. Also democracy is a spectrum, the "benefits of democracy" is almost meaningless if you don't define what type of democracy you're talking about. We quickly get into the "communism was never implemented properly" type of argument too. Sure a theoretical benevolent dictator might be better than a flawed democracy, the problem is that it never happens in real life

jackyinger 1y ago

To the contrary, if voters are manipulated it is not a well functioning democracy. It is a farce of a democracy, the subtle manipulation just adds a veneer of legitimacy because it appears to be a democracy. Those who are manipulating people are the ones in power, not the citizens. Edit: I say subtle in the sense that those being manipulated are not particularly aware of being manipulated.

AndrewKemendo 1y ago

I’m afraid your conclusion is correct There has never been a representative democracy. Not in the US, not anywhere. So it’s impossible to say whether it’s a goal that’s with pursuit. The idea that one ever existed is also a fairy tale to be clear. This is the most globally “representative” system ever, if for no other reason than for the existence of global mobility. Despite global border protection, if you’re determined enough you can get anywhere. Truly. People will argue in a mealymouth way about whether any form of democracy is functional and “best of all bad systems” is typically the masters level refrain. It’s worth thinking beyond 20th century concepts like states

mediumsmart 1y ago

Democracy still is a good idea.

hulitu 1y ago
> Democracy still is a good idea. When they finnaly implement it. /s
ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
Only with an educated population. An uneducated population is more easily swayed by cults of personality which can lead to the rise of dictators as the people will accept and justify any behaviour from the leader of their tribe.
- lm28469 1y ago
  "democracy is bad because it can lead to dictatorship" can't be a serious argument... Democracies are all flawed but theocracies, monarchies, oligarchies, &c. certainly aren't better when it comes to cult of personalities and serving their own tribes
  - rightbyte 1y ago
    > "democracy is bad because it can lead to dictatorship" can't be a serious argument... Heh you got a good point. People seem to expect way to much from their form of government and get desillusionized when it is not magic. Like, join a party and see how the sausage is made.
  - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
    > "democracy is bad because it can lead to dictatorship" can't be a serious argument... It's not and I didn't write, nor intend that. Educated voters are a pre-condition for democracy and without that, democracy fails. It's similar to how market knowledge is a pre-condition of free markets as otherwise markets favour the biggest trader.
hoseja 1y ago
Not with universal suffrage. And without it you need to aggresively curb revolutionary communist parasites.

hoseja 1y ago

The contest for the most efficient manipulation of the plebeians is where the elites are arbitraging their game nowadays. I suppose it's marginally better than constantly dying in their petty wars.

lm28469 1y ago

It's simple really, democracy isn't democracy if the voters aren't well informed. Also democracy is a spectrum, the "benefits of democracy" is almost meaningless if you don't define what type of democracy you're talking about. We quickly get into the "communism was never implemented properly" type of argument too. Sure a theoretical benevolent dictator might be better than a flawed democracy, the problem is that it never happens in real life