5 ms·

Air travel is far too subsidized by the public and I can think of few worse applications of public funds save maybe sports stadiums. It's a huge waste of energy

Air travel is far too subsidized by the public and I can think of few worse applications of public funds save maybe sports stadiums. It's a huge waste of energy, pollution, human labor... Rail is incredibly efficient, and there's a reason China has been building high speed rail as fast as it can. To all the "it would never work here" people: we used to be a nation of rail travel, where you could walk or bike or take a taxi to the local trolley/train/bus station, take a train to where you needed to go. All that was systematically ripped apart by the auto industry either directly or indirectly. There is no reason whatsoever we can't work our way back, especially given how much faster and easier construction of a railway line is now.

alephnerd 1y ago
> Rail is incredibly efficient If you have the density to justify it. There is a case to be made for enhancing rail transit in the eastern seaboard and maybe parts of the Midwest, but America is too large and sparse to justify rail transit at scale. It makes more sense to concentrate on rail infra for freight transit and work on revamping our existing rail freight infra. > there's a reason China has been building high speed rail as fast as it can China stopped subsidizing HSR during the COVID recession. It costs the exact same as a flight ticket now [0] due to high debt [1] (excluding the Beijing-Shanghai track, which actually can justify usage). Most Chinese use normal rail for intercity transit, but this is easier to justify given the density and ease of land acquisition. But even then, China began slowing down railway investment and construction since 2018 [2][3], and started calibrating towards air transit [4] as part of a commercial aviation push [5] [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/business/china-bullet-trains-ticket-prices.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/business/china-bullet-tra... [1] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-29/zhao-jian-whats-not-great-about-chinas-high-speed-rail-the-debt-101375797.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-29/zhao-jian-whats-not-... [2] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-01-02/china-railway-corp-slows-spending-on-rail-projects-101192400.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-01-02/china-railway-corp-s... [3] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-30/china-looks-to-slow-growth-of-money-losing-high-speed-rail-101682703.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-30/china-looks-to-slow-... [4] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-25/smaller-cities-reach-for-the-sky-with-new-airport-construction-101680466.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-25/smaller-cities-reach... [5] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/comac-jets-vietnam-show-chinas-push-international-market-2025-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/comac-jet...
- tuna74 1y ago
  Going from Qingdao to Beijing is much cheaper on train vs airplane. Takes roughly the same time as well. Also, China does both new airports and new rail lines.
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    Aviation in China is uncompetitive mostly because a ton of Chinese airspace (more than half) is closed to civilian traffic. I love trains, but the problem in the US is mostly that it's so damn hard for the government to acquire land for useful rail projects.
dehrmann 1y ago
> Air travel is far too subsidized by the public Don't most of FAA's funds come from taxes on air travel? And around half of Americans travel by air every year, so it's not a niche service.
everybodyknows 1y ago
> I can think of few worse applications of public funds save maybe sports stadiums. Californians can. Subsidies to the movie industry, plumbing run to waterless urinals, bullet trains between farm towns, ...
- sofixa 1y ago
  > bullet trains between farm towns, This is disingenuous and you know it. I think it was the wrong choice for a number of reasons, but the farm towns in question are just first lot of the whole network, starting with the (supposedly) easiest part. Instead of building in the densest parts which would be even more complicated and expensive.
zamadatix 1y ago
I'd LOVE some proper high speed rail across the US but EWR is also huge for international flights. A good rail network would at least help getting to/from their for it but that still leaves a good amount of flights that make no sense to dump.
anal_reactor 1y ago
> Rail is incredibly efficient As a European, I don't understand the fetishization of railway. These are two different means of transportation with two different use cases, with tiny overlap between them.

alephnerd 1y ago

> Rail is incredibly efficient If you have the density to justify it. There is a case to be made for enhancing rail transit in the eastern seaboard and maybe parts of the Midwest, but America is too large and sparse to justify rail transit at scale. It makes more sense to concentrate on rail infra for freight transit and work on revamping our existing rail freight infra. > there's a reason China has been building high speed rail as fast as it can China stopped subsidizing HSR during the COVID recession. It costs the exact same as a flight ticket now [0] due to high debt [1] (excluding the Beijing-Shanghai track, which actually can justify usage). Most Chinese use normal rail for intercity transit, but this is easier to justify given the density and ease of land acquisition. But even then, China began slowing down railway investment and construction since 2018 [2][3], and started calibrating towards air transit [4] as part of a commercial aviation push [5] [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/business/china-bullet-trains-ticket-prices.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/business/china-bullet-tra... [1] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-29/zhao-jian-whats-not-great-about-chinas-high-speed-rail-the-debt-101375797.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-29/zhao-jian-whats-not-... [2] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-01-02/china-railway-corp-slows-spending-on-rail-projects-101192400.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-01-02/china-railway-corp-s... [3] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-30/china-looks-to-slow-growth-of-money-losing-high-speed-rail-101682703.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-30/china-looks-to-slow-... [4] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-25/smaller-cities-reach-for-the-sky-with-new-airport-construction-101680466.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-25/smaller-cities-reach... [5] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/comac-jets-vietnam-show-chinas-push-international-market-2025-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/comac-jet...

tuna74 1y ago
Going from Qingdao to Beijing is much cheaper on train vs airplane. Takes roughly the same time as well. Also, China does both new airports and new rail lines.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  Aviation in China is uncompetitive mostly because a ton of Chinese airspace (more than half) is closed to civilian traffic. I love trains, but the problem in the US is mostly that it's so damn hard for the government to acquire land for useful rail projects.

dehrmann 1y ago

> Air travel is far too subsidized by the public Don't most of FAA's funds come from taxes on air travel? And around half of Americans travel by air every year, so it's not a niche service.

everybodyknows 1y ago

> I can think of few worse applications of public funds save maybe sports stadiums. Californians can. Subsidies to the movie industry, plumbing run to waterless urinals, bullet trains between farm towns, ...

sofixa 1y ago
> bullet trains between farm towns, This is disingenuous and you know it. I think it was the wrong choice for a number of reasons, but the farm towns in question are just first lot of the whole network, starting with the (supposedly) easiest part. Instead of building in the densest parts which would be even more complicated and expensive.

zamadatix 1y ago

I'd LOVE some proper high speed rail across the US but EWR is also huge for international flights. A good rail network would at least help getting to/from their for it but that still leaves a good amount of flights that make no sense to dump.

anal_reactor 1y ago

> Rail is incredibly efficient As a European, I don't understand the fetishization of railway. These are two different means of transportation with two different use cases, with tiny overlap between them.