6 ms·

Getting immigrants who work is a non-issue. I never heard of immigrants from India, China, Africa or Latin America who don't work so long as they entered the co

Getting immigrants who work is a non-issue. I never heard of immigrants from India, China, Africa or Latin America who don't work so long as they entered the country legally. The issue you are alluding to has to do with genuine refugees and illegal economic migrants, who are not filtered at the border depending on their employability within the local market. But the cultural shift is still inevitable. A foreigner is not a local, and it is neither fair nor ethical to expect a foreigner to transform themselves into a local. I think, if you are concerned with the cultural shift, you can give immigrants temporary term VISAs and make it clear their stay is going to be strictly temporary. That was supposed to be how the Gastarbeiter system works. Thing is, when you have already on boarded a foreign worker and have had them working for you for 2 years already, you don't want to let them go and replace them with a fresh foreign worker who you have to retrain.

bananalychee 1y ago
Assimilation as most people understand it does not necessitate an immigrant become completely indistinguishable from a native citizen. There are some baseline expectations that are not always met right now, such as learning the official language of one's host country, and sometimes its social standards. Most countries simply lack the necessary coercive incentives to make that happen systematically. I would argue that most Western cultures have become too individualistic at the expense of societal health, fueling the notion that assimilation is inherently unethical.
- yborg 1y ago
  Without establishing a hermetic environment a la the Amish, assimilation happens automatically in the next generation if a nation has basic structures in place like public education to some minimum standard and basic anti-discrimination laws to allow economic advancement. Children absorb the culture that surrounds them, often to their parents' dismay.
  - stefan_ 1y ago
    Mhm, the current generation of kids of Turkish immigrants in Germany all seem to believe they are actually displaced Turks. I suppose thats what you encourage with double passport and voting for authoritarians at "home". (of course they are totally out of place in Turkey, that part of assimilation is unavoidable)
  - _9ptr 1y ago
    If only that were true. You can look at any country in western europe to see how it's not.
  - theodric 1y ago
    This is not borne out by the anecdata I have collected over the last 22 years as a foreign invader living in and observing Europe. Moroccans in the Netherlands, Albanians in Switzerland, even Irish Travellers in Ireland-- despite being integrated from primary school onward, all seem to be somewhat apart from the host culture even after several generations.
    - selimthegrim 1y ago
      Travellers aren't foreign.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - theodric 1y ago
        And yet they remain a distinct cultural group with different traditions and modes of living, despite integration at a school level. Apparently they've even diverged genetically[1] from the main population. [1] https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/35314239/srep42187.pdf https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/35314239/sre...
  - mmooss 1y ago
    The data I saw is that by the third generation, only a few percent speak the language of their grandparents' country, and most marry outside their nationality. In the US, Italians, Irish, and Germans, as just a few examples, all were treated as unassmilated aliens. People say the same things, generation after generation about newcomers. If you moved to a country with a different language and culture, you might make an effort to learn the language but you would still think, read, etc. in your native language. Your kids would know both languages; their kids would of course speak the language of their surroundings. What solves these problems is a fundamental belief in freedom for all. People don't need to speak your language to be your equal and be just as human, with the same rights as you.
- Loic 1y ago
  I fundamentally agree with your comment. But for Denmark, it is very difficult to learn Danish. I lived there 3 years, took courses and was at end able to do my daily stuff in English, but a part of the society simply does not want a foreigner to speak Danish. You are forced to use English. My girlfriend asked me once in a Restaurant (Cafe Norden in Kopenhagen) why I was ordering in English. Then, I spent the complete evening ordering everything in Danish, to always receive answers in English. And this nearly everywhere (not my bakery, the girls there could not speak a word of English, this was an exception). This was in the early 2000's. This never happened to me in all the other countries I have been living in. A Danish colleague simply told me that he does not like to listen to broken Danish, better switch to English. Still have a lot of friends in Denmark, integration there is not easy, even for highly qualified people from the EU.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Danes are by and large all English speakers, probably the last generation who would have much difficulty with conversational English are all 70+ years old now. And while Danes are generally very polite and friendly with foreigners, there is a level of personal closeness (part of the "hygge" concept) that you will rarely penetrate if you are not a lifelong close friend or family member. This is another part of why real integration into Danish culture is nearly impossible for a foreigner.
  - theodric 1y ago
    I observed over my 11 years in the Netherlands that the friendliness and quality of service I received was greater when I spoke English and much diminished when I spoke Dutch. The Netherlands is, similar to Denmark, a place where people would seemingly prefer to speak English than listen to an accent on their native language.
  - Lyngbakr 1y ago
    I had a similar experience in the Netherlands. We could have a 30 second exchange in their perfect English or a laboured 2 minute conversation in my abysmal Dutch. I struggled to improve because everyone would immediately switch to English.
  - 1y ago
soerxpso 1y ago
> you can give immigrants temporary term VISAs and make it clear their stay is going to be strictly temporary In practice that rarely goes as intended. The first political party to say, "We changed our minds, you can all have citizenship," gets to secure power with an influx of loyal voters.
- Pamar 1y ago
  Maybe I misunderstand your point but... if these people are not citizens (i.e. they need a VISA) how could they actually vote for whatever party proposing this?
  - babyent 1y ago
    He says the party will lock in a loyal block after doing such an act. Before: 5 million illegals or immigrants. Party A passes law making them all citizens. After: Party A always wins because large portion of the new 5 million vote for Party A
    - Pamar 1y ago
      Well, if a party has enough votes to pass such a law, it means that the majority of the society has no problems with that. Conversely, if this hypothetical party had a secret agenda to pass the law when they get elected, but they kept this a secret until then... first of all they will probably lose of voters in the next election. Also, they might find out that former immigrants do not automatically reward this behaviour in terms of votes. I do not find this scenario particularly realistic.

bananalychee 1y ago

Assimilation as most people understand it does not necessitate an immigrant become completely indistinguishable from a native citizen. There are some baseline expectations that are not always met right now, such as learning the official language of one's host country, and sometimes its social standards. Most countries simply lack the necessary coercive incentives to make that happen systematically. I would argue that most Western cultures have become too individualistic at the expense of societal health, fueling the notion that assimilation is inherently unethical.

yborg 1y ago
Without establishing a hermetic environment a la the Amish, assimilation happens automatically in the next generation if a nation has basic structures in place like public education to some minimum standard and basic anti-discrimination laws to allow economic advancement. Children absorb the culture that surrounds them, often to their parents' dismay.
- stefan_ 1y ago
  Mhm, the current generation of kids of Turkish immigrants in Germany all seem to believe they are actually displaced Turks. I suppose thats what you encourage with double passport and voting for authoritarians at "home". (of course they are totally out of place in Turkey, that part of assimilation is unavoidable)
- _9ptr 1y ago
  If only that were true. You can look at any country in western europe to see how it's not.
- theodric 1y ago
  This is not borne out by the anecdata I have collected over the last 22 years as a foreign invader living in and observing Europe. Moroccans in the Netherlands, Albanians in Switzerland, even Irish Travellers in Ireland-- despite being integrated from primary school onward, all seem to be somewhat apart from the host culture even after several generations.
  - selimthegrim 1y ago
    Travellers aren't foreign.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - theodric 1y ago
      And yet they remain a distinct cultural group with different traditions and modes of living, despite integration at a school level. Apparently they've even diverged genetically[1] from the main population. [1] https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/35314239/srep42187.pdf https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/35314239/sre...
- mmooss 1y ago
  The data I saw is that by the third generation, only a few percent speak the language of their grandparents' country, and most marry outside their nationality. In the US, Italians, Irish, and Germans, as just a few examples, all were treated as unassmilated aliens. People say the same things, generation after generation about newcomers. If you moved to a country with a different language and culture, you might make an effort to learn the language but you would still think, read, etc. in your native language. Your kids would know both languages; their kids would of course speak the language of their surroundings. What solves these problems is a fundamental belief in freedom for all. People don't need to speak your language to be your equal and be just as human, with the same rights as you.
Loic 1y ago
I fundamentally agree with your comment. But for Denmark, it is very difficult to learn Danish. I lived there 3 years, took courses and was at end able to do my daily stuff in English, but a part of the society simply does not want a foreigner to speak Danish. You are forced to use English. My girlfriend asked me once in a Restaurant (Cafe Norden in Kopenhagen) why I was ordering in English. Then, I spent the complete evening ordering everything in Danish, to always receive answers in English. And this nearly everywhere (not my bakery, the girls there could not speak a word of English, this was an exception). This was in the early 2000's. This never happened to me in all the other countries I have been living in. A Danish colleague simply told me that he does not like to listen to broken Danish, better switch to English. Still have a lot of friends in Denmark, integration there is not easy, even for highly qualified people from the EU.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Danes are by and large all English speakers, probably the last generation who would have much difficulty with conversational English are all 70+ years old now. And while Danes are generally very polite and friendly with foreigners, there is a level of personal closeness (part of the "hygge" concept) that you will rarely penetrate if you are not a lifelong close friend or family member. This is another part of why real integration into Danish culture is nearly impossible for a foreigner.
- theodric 1y ago
  I observed over my 11 years in the Netherlands that the friendliness and quality of service I received was greater when I spoke English and much diminished when I spoke Dutch. The Netherlands is, similar to Denmark, a place where people would seemingly prefer to speak English than listen to an accent on their native language.
- Lyngbakr 1y ago
  I had a similar experience in the Netherlands. We could have a 30 second exchange in their perfect English or a laboured 2 minute conversation in my abysmal Dutch. I struggled to improve because everyone would immediately switch to English.
- 1y ago

soerxpso 1y ago

> you can give immigrants temporary term VISAs and make it clear their stay is going to be strictly temporary In practice that rarely goes as intended. The first political party to say, "We changed our minds, you can all have citizenship," gets to secure power with an influx of loyal voters.

Pamar 1y ago
Maybe I misunderstand your point but... if these people are not citizens (i.e. they need a VISA) how could they actually vote for whatever party proposing this?
- babyent 1y ago
  He says the party will lock in a loyal block after doing such an act. Before: 5 million illegals or immigrants. Party A passes law making them all citizens. After: Party A always wins because large portion of the new 5 million vote for Party A
  - Pamar 1y ago
    Well, if a party has enough votes to pass such a law, it means that the majority of the society has no problems with that. Conversely, if this hypothetical party had a secret agenda to pass the law when they get elected, but they kept this a secret until then... first of all they will probably lose of voters in the next election. Also, they might find out that former immigrants do not automatically reward this behaviour in terms of votes. I do not find this scenario particularly realistic.