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This is the last time I felt the power of the propaganda machine. (The most recent time was the 2024 election) It was so obvious to myself and my friends that t

This is the last time I felt the power of the propaganda machine. (The most recent time was the 2024 election) It was so obvious to myself and my friends that this was completely cooked up intelligence. And yet the truth was not getting out, and had fooled many people with this strange groupthink, almost like a dumb, braying herd animal, where the collective intelligence was utterly ambushed and tied up in a sack. I don't like feeling powerless, yet I have this feeling that our voices have been smothered of late, destroyed by ridiculous talking points.

princealiiiii 1y ago
The same propoganda machine has been on full effect in Israel's war on Gaza with American support. As soon as the attacks happened, there was a rush of propaganda (40 beheaded babies, mass rapes) to make the Hamas attacks seem completely unprovoked to justify the complete destruction of Gaza. The good news is Americans are more questioning this time of why they need to be involved in this at all.
- Veen 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - proshno 1y ago
    [dead]
- Duwensatzaj 1y ago
  What’s hilarious is how the “40 beheaded babies” claim is indeed propaganda - from Hamas apologists. The original statement is that 40 infants were murdered during the Oct 7th massacre and infants were beheaded, no number given. This somehow mutated into the claim that all 40 murdered infants were beheaded so the claim could be ridiculed.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
    Nope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_baby_beheading_hoax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_baby_beheading_hoax
    - Duwensatzaj 1y ago
      Sorry, I don't have Gell-Mann amnesia - Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source on controversial claims like this based on the outright lies I've seen on things I know.
- nicbou 1y ago
  I am getting the compete opposite side, on average. Although Western states are very pro Israel, everything I read on social media is pro Palestine. On the street even more so (across a lot of countries).
  - maeil 1y ago
    > Although Western states are very pro Israel. They're not, you're simply misinformed. The US and Germany have been. Countries like Ireland, Spain and Scotland have not. A lot of others have been somewhere inbetween, often as weakly-held beliefs. It's been very low on the list of priorities for people in country like Belgium, they might have been nominally pro-Irsael, but without caring particularly much. Now that Israel has been genociding for a year, except for those first two almost every Western state is largely pro-Palestine. Unless you're purely talking about governments instead of the populace, but that makes no sense in this context of talking about social media.
    - nicbou 1y ago
      I meant governments, not people. On the ground in Berlin, Germany definitely isn't pro-Israel.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- sebastos 1y ago
  What happened “as soon as the attack happened” was you had Hamas apologists pre-emotively criticizing Israel BEFORE there was even time for any response to have happened. A moral absurdity. “Palestinians didn’t kill as many babies or do as many rapes as people say they did” does not cut as deep as you seem to think it does. The Oct 7th atrocities were atrocities, in the fullest sense of that word.
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Yeah, friggen Hamas publishing their videos of themselves kidnapping 6 year old girls (that one still haunts me), or videos of themselves parading around young dead womens almost nude bodies and spitting on her. Pure fake propaganda, the videos Hamas published of themselves that the world saw that very day.
sigmoid10 1y ago
If you didn't feel the machine in all those other cases it has gone full swing since then, that just means these two attempts were extremely crude by comparison (and they were indeed). But Cambridge Analytica has really ushered us into a new era of manipulation, where most citizens don't even have the slightest chance of perceiving how they are getting played by nefarious actors. And that was just the tip of the iceberg. Today we have stuff like the Saudis buying access to Twitter/X after getting busted for planting literal double agents inside the company. The level and sophistication of propaganda we see right now is unprecedented in human history.
- fooblaster 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - dc396 1y ago
    An interesting assertion. A quick Google search didn't turn up anything definitive for me. Do you have references?
    - fooblaster 1y ago
      One of many: https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/researcher-in-facebook-scandal-says-my-work-was-worthless-to-cambridge-analytic-idUSKBN1HV13S/ https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/researcher-in-fac... see comments of hacker news threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20800031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20800031
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > Cambridge analytica had absolutely no impact on the election whatsoever, Of course not. They weren't even active on Facebook, they were selling potatoes at the local market. /s
  - sigmoid10 1y ago
    >Cambridge analytica had absolutely no impact on the election whatsoever Say the guys who were implicated and facing public humiliation or even punishment. Meta has already paid billions of dollars in fines and settlements because of this, so all these people not covering their asses would actually be surprising. But if you look at the raw evidence uncovered during the senate hearings, there is no doubt that it had a major effect on the election and beyond.
CoastalCoder 1y ago
It certainly is making me wonder about the supposed benefits of democracy. If our votes, even those of our elected representatives, are so easily manipulated, then what's the point? My question isn't entirely rhetorical. I'm hoping someone can talk me out of that conclusion.
- jackyinger 1y ago
  To the contrary, if voters are manipulated it is not a well functioning democracy. It is a farce of a democracy, the subtle manipulation just adds a veneer of legitimacy because it appears to be a democracy. Those who are manipulating people are the ones in power, not the citizens. Edit: I say subtle in the sense that those being manipulated are not particularly aware of being manipulated.
- AndrewKemendo 1y ago
  I’m afraid your conclusion is correct There has never been a representative democracy. Not in the US, not anywhere. So it’s impossible to say whether it’s a goal that’s with pursuit. The idea that one ever existed is also a fairy tale to be clear. This is the most globally “representative” system ever, if for no other reason than for the existence of global mobility. Despite global border protection, if you’re determined enough you can get anywhere. Truly. People will argue in a mealymouth way about whether any form of democracy is functional and “best of all bad systems” is typically the masters level refrain. It’s worth thinking beyond 20th century concepts like states
- mediumsmart 1y ago
  Democracy still is a good idea.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > Democracy still is a good idea. When they finnaly implement it. /s
  - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
    Only with an educated population. An uneducated population is more easily swayed by cults of personality which can lead to the rise of dictators as the people will accept and justify any behaviour from the leader of their tribe.
ahartmetz 1y ago
I was also puzzled about the low quality of the lies and how little they were challenged at the time. I watched that presentation with the trucks - wow that was bad. As if it was being sabotaged on purpose by people who didn't want to do it. But it worked anyway!
- ahartmetz 1y ago
  By the way, there's a decent quality German (but most of the talking is in English) docu-drama about the intelligence campaign, it's called Curveball.
fred_is_fred 1y ago
The Weapons of mass destruction were easy, west, north, and south of this comment.

princealiiiii 1y ago

The same propoganda machine has been on full effect in Israel's war on Gaza with American support. As soon as the attacks happened, there was a rush of propaganda (40 beheaded babies, mass rapes) to make the Hamas attacks seem completely unprovoked to justify the complete destruction of Gaza. The good news is Americans are more questioning this time of why they need to be involved in this at all.

Veen 1y ago
[flagged]
- proshno 1y ago
  [dead]
Duwensatzaj 1y ago
What’s hilarious is how the “40 beheaded babies” claim is indeed propaganda - from Hamas apologists. The original statement is that 40 infants were murdered during the Oct 7th massacre and infants were beheaded, no number given. This somehow mutated into the claim that all 40 murdered infants were beheaded so the claim could be ridiculed.
- zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
  Nope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_baby_beheading_hoax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_baby_beheading_hoax
  - Duwensatzaj 1y ago
    Sorry, I don't have Gell-Mann amnesia - Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source on controversial claims like this based on the outright lies I've seen on things I know.
nicbou 1y ago
I am getting the compete opposite side, on average. Although Western states are very pro Israel, everything I read on social media is pro Palestine. On the street even more so (across a lot of countries).
- maeil 1y ago
  > Although Western states are very pro Israel. They're not, you're simply misinformed. The US and Germany have been. Countries like Ireland, Spain and Scotland have not. A lot of others have been somewhere inbetween, often as weakly-held beliefs. It's been very low on the list of priorities for people in country like Belgium, they might have been nominally pro-Irsael, but without caring particularly much. Now that Israel has been genociding for a year, except for those first two almost every Western state is largely pro-Palestine. Unless you're purely talking about governments instead of the populace, but that makes no sense in this context of talking about social media.
  - nicbou 1y ago
    I meant governments, not people. On the ground in Berlin, Germany definitely isn't pro-Israel.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
sebastos 1y ago
What happened “as soon as the attack happened” was you had Hamas apologists pre-emotively criticizing Israel BEFORE there was even time for any response to have happened. A moral absurdity. “Palestinians didn’t kill as many babies or do as many rapes as people say they did” does not cut as deep as you seem to think it does. The Oct 7th atrocities were atrocities, in the fullest sense of that word.
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
Yeah, friggen Hamas publishing their videos of themselves kidnapping 6 year old girls (that one still haunts me), or videos of themselves parading around young dead womens almost nude bodies and spitting on her. Pure fake propaganda, the videos Hamas published of themselves that the world saw that very day.

sigmoid10 1y ago

If you didn't feel the machine in all those other cases it has gone full swing since then, that just means these two attempts were extremely crude by comparison (and they were indeed). But Cambridge Analytica has really ushered us into a new era of manipulation, where most citizens don't even have the slightest chance of perceiving how they are getting played by nefarious actors. And that was just the tip of the iceberg. Today we have stuff like the Saudis buying access to Twitter/X after getting busted for planting literal double agents inside the company. The level and sophistication of propaganda we see right now is unprecedented in human history.

fooblaster 1y ago
[flagged]
- dc396 1y ago
  An interesting assertion. A quick Google search didn't turn up anything definitive for me. Do you have references?
  - fooblaster 1y ago
    One of many: https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/researcher-in-facebook-scandal-says-my-work-was-worthless-to-cambridge-analytic-idUSKBN1HV13S/ https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/researcher-in-fac... see comments of hacker news threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20800031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20800031
- hulitu 1y ago
  > Cambridge analytica had absolutely no impact on the election whatsoever, Of course not. They weren't even active on Facebook, they were selling potatoes at the local market. /s
- sigmoid10 1y ago
  >Cambridge analytica had absolutely no impact on the election whatsoever Say the guys who were implicated and facing public humiliation or even punishment. Meta has already paid billions of dollars in fines and settlements because of this, so all these people not covering their asses would actually be surprising. But if you look at the raw evidence uncovered during the senate hearings, there is no doubt that it had a major effect on the election and beyond.

CoastalCoder 1y ago

It certainly is making me wonder about the supposed benefits of democracy. If our votes, even those of our elected representatives, are so easily manipulated, then what's the point? My question isn't entirely rhetorical. I'm hoping someone can talk me out of that conclusion.

jackyinger 1y ago
To the contrary, if voters are manipulated it is not a well functioning democracy. It is a farce of a democracy, the subtle manipulation just adds a veneer of legitimacy because it appears to be a democracy. Those who are manipulating people are the ones in power, not the citizens. Edit: I say subtle in the sense that those being manipulated are not particularly aware of being manipulated.
AndrewKemendo 1y ago
I’m afraid your conclusion is correct There has never been a representative democracy. Not in the US, not anywhere. So it’s impossible to say whether it’s a goal that’s with pursuit. The idea that one ever existed is also a fairy tale to be clear. This is the most globally “representative” system ever, if for no other reason than for the existence of global mobility. Despite global border protection, if you’re determined enough you can get anywhere. Truly. People will argue in a mealymouth way about whether any form of democracy is functional and “best of all bad systems” is typically the masters level refrain. It’s worth thinking beyond 20th century concepts like states
mediumsmart 1y ago
Democracy still is a good idea.
- hulitu 1y ago
  > Democracy still is a good idea. When they finnaly implement it. /s
- ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
  Only with an educated population. An uneducated population is more easily swayed by cults of personality which can lead to the rise of dictators as the people will accept and justify any behaviour from the leader of their tribe.

ahartmetz 1y ago

I was also puzzled about the low quality of the lies and how little they were challenged at the time. I watched that presentation with the trucks - wow that was bad. As if it was being sabotaged on purpose by people who didn't want to do it. But it worked anyway!

ahartmetz 1y ago
By the way, there's a decent quality German (but most of the talking is in English) docu-drama about the intelligence campaign, it's called Curveball.

fred_is_fred 1y ago

The Weapons of mass destruction were easy, west, north, and south of this comment.