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Tangent; A lot of people forget that the basis of the European Economic Area and European Union was to promote free trade with the sole intent purpose of makin

by dijit 1y ago

Tangent; A lot of people forget that the basis of the European Economic Area and European Union was to promote free trade with the sole intent purpose of making future wars unthinkable. As in, if Britain depends on France for power, and France depends on Britain for pharmaceuticals- going to war with each other becomes intentionally difficult to the point of near impossibility without extremely good reasons. If you want your opponent to know that you don't mind going to war, a good option is to ensure you don't "depend" on them for anything, and to cut them off from getting good things from you that might aid them.

throw0101d 1y ago
> A lot of people forget that the basis of the European Economic Area and European Union was to promote free trade with the sole intent purpose of making future wars unthinkable. And that was one of the reason for letting China into the WTO: the thinking is they'd prosper and the citizens would see the advantages of capitalism and economic liberalization would lead to political liberalization. How's Chinese political liberalization coming along? (Remember that Europeans generally had political liberalization before WW2.)
- dijit 1y ago
  > How's Chinese political liberalization coming along? Same as it was in Ukraine, a slow groundswell and then an all at once revolution due to the "powers that be" not listening. https://www.economist.com/china/2024/09/05/liberalism-is-far-from-dead-in-china https://www.economist.com/china/2024/09/05/liberalism-is-far... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_China
skippyboxedhero 1y ago
The EU explicitly does not promote free trade. The countries within the EU are almost all countries with a very long history of protectionism, there are significant NTBs in every industry, there are specific industries where there have been decades of massive subsidies, and...perhaps the most funny...there isn't free trade within the EU. EU politicians talk endlessly about free trade but these are rules for other people, not them. The lack of harmonization INSIDE the EU in services is significant (and btw, this is also true of other economic blocs, for example this is true of the US to a certain, far lesser, extent). Finally, the issue with free trade for the EU is that their products aren't competitive. They have 2 countries which run massive trade surpluses because due of the Euro and obviously bad central bank policy, if this wasn't the case then there would be rebalancing (EU's persistent trade surpluses contribute to financial instability in the same way that China's trade surpluses contributed to instability pre-07, it is very bad for everyone but politicians in two countries in the EU). Also, there was significant trade before WW1 (we didn't recover that peak in terms of trade until the late 90s) and it didn't stop war. Saying that opposing free trade is the same thing as declaring war on your neighbours is nonsensical (and I assume relates to something going on US politics).
- dijit 1y ago
  > The EU explicitly does not promote free trade. How can you say this when it's explicitly one of the four fundamental freedoms in the EU? I can't even read the rest of your comment when you're so completely wrong right off the bat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_economic_freedoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_economic_freedoms To list them here: * Free movement of goods * Free movement of services * Free movement of capital * Free movement of labor/people
  - skippyboxedhero 1y ago
    You failed to engage with any of the points I made, your only evidence is a vague statement of principles that no-one has ever behaved in line with. This is a peculiarly modern viewpoint with people raised on social media: saying something is a good as doing it. What you say matters, what you do doesn't. To just go through the list: there isn't free movement of goods externally, there isn't free movement of goods WITHIN the EU (again, be clear...we aren't talking about the EU trading with other countries, this is countries within the EU trading with each other), there isn't free movement of capital WITHIN the EU, there is free movement of people...sometimes, but Schengen has been repeatedly suspended by member states because of the political instability it causes. Btw...all of this public, the EU has been trying to harmonize services for two decades (before this, they didn't even try), the EU has been trying to harmonize capital markets furiously since the Euro crisis...it hasn't worked because of the issues with the Euro, central bank policy, and the weakness of French/German banks.
    - dijit 1y ago
      Ok, so I can't throw a van full of computers in the back of a truck in the Czech Republic, drive it to Estonia and sell it in the local market with no customs fees? (hint: yes I can). Nobody was talking about free trade outside of the EU, when the whole point of the single-market was to prevent war in a region that had not seen total peace for more than 20 years for the preceding 2,000+ years: the point becomes much more about that region. 70 years without a major war is absolutely incredible. Even "the long peace" had minor wars. The EU does promote free trade, and signs deals when it can, and I was talking about internally anyway since that's whats relevant here; the EU is made up of countries that no longer go to war with each other. Which is the entire point.

by dijit 1y ago

throw0101d 1y ago

> A lot of people forget that the basis of the European Economic Area and European Union was to promote free trade with the sole intent purpose of making future wars unthinkable. And that was one of the reason for letting China into the WTO: the thinking is they'd prosper and the citizens would see the advantages of capitalism and economic liberalization would lead to political liberalization. How's Chinese political liberalization coming along? (Remember that Europeans generally had political liberalization before WW2.)

dijit 1y ago
> How's Chinese political liberalization coming along? Same as it was in Ukraine, a slow groundswell and then an all at once revolution due to the "powers that be" not listening. https://www.economist.com/china/2024/09/05/liberalism-is-far-from-dead-in-china https://www.economist.com/china/2024/09/05/liberalism-is-far... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_China

skippyboxedhero 1y ago

The EU explicitly does not promote free trade. The countries within the EU are almost all countries with a very long history of protectionism, there are significant NTBs in every industry, there are specific industries where there have been decades of massive subsidies, and...perhaps the most funny...there isn't free trade within the EU. EU politicians talk endlessly about free trade but these are rules for other people, not them. The lack of harmonization INSIDE the EU in services is significant (and btw, this is also true of other economic blocs, for example this is true of the US to a certain, far lesser, extent). Finally, the issue with free trade for the EU is that their products aren't competitive. They have 2 countries which run massive trade surpluses because due of the Euro and obviously bad central bank policy, if this wasn't the case then there would be rebalancing (EU's persistent trade surpluses contribute to financial instability in the same way that China's trade surpluses contributed to instability pre-07, it is very bad for everyone but politicians in two countries in the EU). Also, there was significant trade before WW1 (we didn't recover that peak in terms of trade until the late 90s) and it didn't stop war. Saying that opposing free trade is the same thing as declaring war on your neighbours is nonsensical (and I assume relates to something going on US politics).

dijit 1y ago
> The EU explicitly does not promote free trade. How can you say this when it's explicitly one of the four fundamental freedoms in the EU? I can't even read the rest of your comment when you're so completely wrong right off the bat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_economic_freedoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_economic_freedoms To list them here: * Free movement of goods * Free movement of services * Free movement of capital * Free movement of labor/people
- skippyboxedhero 1y ago
  You failed to engage with any of the points I made, your only evidence is a vague statement of principles that no-one has ever behaved in line with. This is a peculiarly modern viewpoint with people raised on social media: saying something is a good as doing it. What you say matters, what you do doesn't. To just go through the list: there isn't free movement of goods externally, there isn't free movement of goods WITHIN the EU (again, be clear...we aren't talking about the EU trading with other countries, this is countries within the EU trading with each other), there isn't free movement of capital WITHIN the EU, there is free movement of people...sometimes, but Schengen has been repeatedly suspended by member states because of the political instability it causes. Btw...all of this public, the EU has been trying to harmonize services for two decades (before this, they didn't even try), the EU has been trying to harmonize capital markets furiously since the Euro crisis...it hasn't worked because of the issues with the Euro, central bank policy, and the weakness of French/German banks.
  - dijit 1y ago
    Ok, so I can't throw a van full of computers in the back of a truck in the Czech Republic, drive it to Estonia and sell it in the local market with no customs fees? (hint: yes I can). Nobody was talking about free trade outside of the EU, when the whole point of the single-market was to prevent war in a region that had not seen total peace for more than 20 years for the preceding 2,000+ years: the point becomes much more about that region. 70 years without a major war is absolutely incredible. Even "the long peace" had minor wars. The EU does promote free trade, and signs deals when it can, and I was talking about internally anyway since that's whats relevant here; the EU is made up of countries that no longer go to war with each other. Which is the entire point.