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I am optimistic longer term, pessimistic near term What needs to happen is the education of "junior programmers" needs to be revamped to embrace generative AI.

I am optimistic longer term, pessimistic near term What needs to happen is the education of "junior programmers" needs to be revamped to embrace generative AI. In the same way we embraced google or stackoverflow. We're at a weird transition state where the juniors are being taught to code with an abacus, while the industry has moved on to different tools. Generative AI feels taboo in education circles instead of embraced. Now there will eventually be a generation of coders just "born" into AI, etc, and they will do great in this new ecosystem. Eventually education will catch up. But the cohort currently coming up as juniors will feel the most pain.

xtracto 1y ago
You raise a good point. Ba k in the early 90s when i started with programming, my source of knowledge were magazines with code, a "programming with C/C++" book, and a lot of time. Then the internet came, and it felt like 'cheating'. Then forums came and it felt like cheating, Then SO, and so on and so forth. Now AI is eating the [software] world, and to a lot of people, it feels like cheating. I am just amazed of what i can build. In 10-15 years software will become a commodity, along with books/stories and maybe even music/art. I don't know how it looks like. But darn im excited to be here to experience it.
- physicles 1y ago
  I was there for those changes too (I taught myself programming a couple years before we got internet), and I disagree that the internet and SO felt like cheating. No matter what resources you had, you could never get very far if you didn’t understand what your code was doing. That’s no longer true. And that democratizes these skills, which I agree could be a great thing. But do you agree that it’s important for kids to learn to think critically and systematically? Because it’s super hard to stay motivated to learn those things when LLMs do that for you (and you’re too young to tell when they’re doing a bad job of it).
crabl 1y ago
As a potential solution, do you think formal/semi-formal software development education (undergrad programs, colleges/polytechnics, dev bootcamps, etc) should lean super heavily into AI? To the extent that it's not just "use ChatGPT to help you complete this assignment" but rather "complete this assignment using *only* ChatGPT: you're not allowed to write any of the code by yourself".
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  CS degree programs have never been about learning to code. They are learning about computers, data structures, machine structures, algorithms. The code was always done on your own time at least that's how my school did it. I never had a class in "Java" or "Python" or "C" or any other languge, that was always incidental to the particular course. I could have used ChatGPT (had it existed) or hired a friend to write the code but that wouldn't help me on the exams (written on paper, at that time). Dev bootcamps? Yeah they should probably be leaning hard into AI as that's just what junior devs are going to be asked to do from here on out.
userbinator 1y ago
What needs to happen is the education of "junior programmers" needs to be revamped to embrace generative AI. No they don't. They need to actually learn how to use their brains first.
_ink_ 1y ago
I agree. I always wondered at what point I will feel old and that I can't keep up with technology. Afterall I grew up with Internet. But this might be it.
mrheosuper 1y ago
>Generative AI feels taboo in education Nah, only the teachers feel this, Gen AI is extremely popular in students. In fact, you would look weird if you don't use Gen AI for school work. What we need is teaching them how to use gen AI effectively.
- drysine 1y ago
  And how to use forklift in a gym to lift weights.
mrweasel 1y ago
I'm optimistic long long long term, but long term our industry is screwed. The current LLM based "AI" isn't good enough and we're already seeing way to many unable to code without the assistance of an AI agent. Sure, many of these people couldn't code at all before, or only very poorly, but at least their output was limited. We're producing way to much code (and to much content in general). The heavy leaning into AI at this point is going to set us back 10 - 15 years, for a short term profit. It's the dotcom bubble all over again in that respect. Way to many unskilled people are producing garbage code, and there aren't enough skilled people around to fix it, because the output volume is to high. > Google recently told employees it would soon hold a companywide hackathon in which one category would be creating A.I. tools that could “enhance their overall daily productivity,” according to an internal announcement. Winning teams will receive $10,000. If it's really that great, why the competition? Shouldn't this happen pretty organically? Companies are pushing "AI" hard, why to hard, it's not yet there where it can realistically deliver what is expected on the business side. I think even Google developers know this, but hey, $10,000 is $10,000. I'm very concerned that we eroding trust, safety and quality long term, for a short term profit. It's not that LLMs can't be helpful, save money or improve quality, but you have to be a fairly skilled developer to get those advantages safely.
fzeroracer 1y ago
You should try interviewing a few people fresh out of college. That'll change your opinion incredibly quickly.

xtracto 1y ago

You raise a good point. Ba k in the early 90s when i started with programming, my source of knowledge were magazines with code, a "programming with C/C++" book, and a lot of time. Then the internet came, and it felt like 'cheating'. Then forums came and it felt like cheating, Then SO, and so on and so forth. Now AI is eating the [software] world, and to a lot of people, it feels like cheating. I am just amazed of what i can build. In 10-15 years software will become a commodity, along with books/stories and maybe even music/art. I don't know how it looks like. But darn im excited to be here to experience it.

physicles 1y ago
I was there for those changes too (I taught myself programming a couple years before we got internet), and I disagree that the internet and SO felt like cheating. No matter what resources you had, you could never get very far if you didn’t understand what your code was doing. That’s no longer true. And that democratizes these skills, which I agree could be a great thing. But do you agree that it’s important for kids to learn to think critically and systematically? Because it’s super hard to stay motivated to learn those things when LLMs do that for you (and you’re too young to tell when they’re doing a bad job of it).

crabl 1y ago

As a potential solution, do you think formal/semi-formal software development education (undergrad programs, colleges/polytechnics, dev bootcamps, etc) should lean super heavily into AI? To the extent that it's not just "use ChatGPT to help you complete this assignment" but rather "complete this assignment using *only* ChatGPT: you're not allowed to write any of the code by yourself".

SoftTalker 1y ago
CS degree programs have never been about learning to code. They are learning about computers, data structures, machine structures, algorithms. The code was always done on your own time at least that's how my school did it. I never had a class in "Java" or "Python" or "C" or any other languge, that was always incidental to the particular course. I could have used ChatGPT (had it existed) or hired a friend to write the code but that wouldn't help me on the exams (written on paper, at that time). Dev bootcamps? Yeah they should probably be leaning hard into AI as that's just what junior devs are going to be asked to do from here on out.

userbinator 1y ago

What needs to happen is the education of "junior programmers" needs to be revamped to embrace generative AI. No they don't. They need to actually learn how to use their brains first.

_ink_ 1y ago

I agree. I always wondered at what point I will feel old and that I can't keep up with technology. Afterall I grew up with Internet. But this might be it.

mrheosuper 1y ago

>Generative AI feels taboo in education Nah, only the teachers feel this, Gen AI is extremely popular in students. In fact, you would look weird if you don't use Gen AI for school work. What we need is teaching them how to use gen AI effectively.

drysine 1y ago
And how to use forklift in a gym to lift weights.

mrweasel 1y ago

I'm optimistic long long long term, but long term our industry is screwed. The current LLM based "AI" isn't good enough and we're already seeing way to many unable to code without the assistance of an AI agent. Sure, many of these people couldn't code at all before, or only very poorly, but at least their output was limited. We're producing way to much code (and to much content in general). The heavy leaning into AI at this point is going to set us back 10 - 15 years, for a short term profit. It's the dotcom bubble all over again in that respect. Way to many unskilled people are producing garbage code, and there aren't enough skilled people around to fix it, because the output volume is to high. > Google recently told employees it would soon hold a companywide hackathon in which one category would be creating A.I. tools that could “enhance their overall daily productivity,” according to an internal announcement. Winning teams will receive $10,000. If it's really that great, why the competition? Shouldn't this happen pretty organically? Companies are pushing "AI" hard, why to hard, it's not yet there where it can realistically deliver what is expected on the business side. I think even Google developers know this, but hey, $10,000 is $10,000. I'm very concerned that we eroding trust, safety and quality long term, for a short term profit. It's not that LLMs can't be helpful, save money or improve quality, but you have to be a fairly skilled developer to get those advantages safely.

fzeroracer 1y ago

You should try interviewing a few people fresh out of college. That'll change your opinion incredibly quickly.