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Mayorkas got impeached and ignored court orders also. Although an impeachment is seen as purely political now so perhaps it carries no weight. No one on here wa

Mayorkas got impeached and ignored court orders also. Although an impeachment is seen as purely political now so perhaps it carries no weight. No one on here was fretting about Mayorkas ignoring courts though or ignoring immigration laws on the books. I think that's an interesting point about all this is just speaking like a bureaucrat or laundering an agenda through sympathetic courts makes it more legitimate than how Trump communicates with the public. In reality they both ignored courts.

mattnewton 1y ago
That's comparing apples to lemonade. Mayorkas impeachment centered on alleged systemic refusal to comply with immigration laws (ie, basically policy disputes), that the Senate did not agree with. To my knowledge he never refused a court order or defied a court order. Kristi Noem was ordered 9-0 by the supreme court to return a man who lower courts found was unlawfully deported to a foreign supermax prison, and has told anyone who asks that she has no intent to every comply with the ruling to return him because she does not recognize the authority of the court here. This goes well beyond the partisan political maneuvering of Mayorkas impeachment. These are not equivalent cases at all, and this administration's behavior is a marketed departure from the state department's enforcement of the laws before. You could separately argue it's a warranted departure, but I cannot see how arguing it's business as usual and just made to look bad by the media follows.
- onetimeusename 1y ago
  Regarding Mayorkas there's this: https://homeland.house.gov/2023/06/20/what-they-are-saying-homeland-republicans-launch-mayorkas-investigation-with-preliminary-report-full-committee-hearing/ https://homeland.house.gov/2023/06/20/what-they-are-saying-h... which mentions ignoring court orders. I am not arguing what Trump or Biden/Mayorkas did is business-as-usual. No, I think Trump messed up and he personally seems to disregard the limits of the executive branch. But, according to AI, 8 million people were encountered crossing the border under the last term so let's say at least 8 million people made the journey making it one of the largest human migrations in world history. What I am arguing is that there are people, maybe as many as half the country, who are in favor of it happening and that concerns about immigrant rights to seek asylum and due process are actually an attempt to launder an open borders agenda through legal procedures. Meaning, I think when you get to 8 million arrivals, the concerns about ensuring due process for asylum claims we can kind of tell are bogus that maybe this wasn't just an uncontrollable event and you either committed negligence or... favored it happening and worked to ensure more of it. What happened to Garcia seems like an administrative error, sure. But it also seems like splitting hairs because he was probably going to be deported regardless so comparing the situation to a fascist dictatorship to me is disingenuous. Is it an error? yes. Were his rights denied? Yes, in a technical sense. Are we now a lawless dictatorship? No, and where was anyone saying this for other presidencies? I actually just think people are upset that the migration they favored is being reversed.
  - mattnewton 1y ago
    The article reiterates allegations house republicans made that the Senate did not affirm. I am unable to find the specific court orders he was in violation with, just this repeated assertion. Again, you can argue against the policy of Mayorkas, but neither the courts nor the legislature ultimately seem to have found him in violation of the law. And all I was arguing with was that this was not business as usual and the media is not making something out of nothing. This is a big change in policy. What happened to Garcia is really not splitting hairs and I really encourage you to look into the case more thoroughly. He was under a court order _not_ to be deported because he had credibly made the case to the courts that he was in danger from the very gangs the government later accused him of being a member of. The executive branch is unambiguously ignoring the Supreme Court currently. This is the most salient and unambigious example I am aware of, but there are many additional cases and actions of the government in the same direction. I can only conclude the court system is not working as an equal branch and a check on the executive right now based on the statements and actions of the adminstration. I am not arguing the policy, I'm arguing that the checks and balances of the US government are being ignored in pursuit of the policy. The bill of rights, especially around due process, is being interpreted to not apply to foreigners. And that is alarming if you wanted to visit the US and believed those checks and balances would be in force. People have been saying the executive branch has been needed too much power since Bush jr. No president since then has meaningfully rolled back executive power, and they deserve some criticism for it. But the increased criticism of Trump's second term is not for nothing. I believe ignoring the courts is actually acting like a dictator, even for a policy (cracking down at the border) that the polls I've seen show majority of Americans support. How you execute a policy matters.
    - onetimeusename 1y ago
      It seems the issue was that a lower court tried to force DHS to enforce laws which Texas and other states argued he was not doing and a judge agreed. The SC struck that ruling down and said the states lacked standing and courts can't order the executive to enforce the law. To me that's kind of a weird outcome. I think that gets at what I am talking about. There's a letter and a spirit of the law. Under legalistic procedural reasoning it is totally normal and not illegal at all that at least 8 million people turned up and were able to claim asylum. However, it is authoritarian to make an administrative error that causes someone to not have exhaustive hearings. I think that gets to my point here which is whether it's possible for lawyers to launder an agenda through legal procedures. Yes, Trump's admin violated rights but the overall big picture is that lawyers can create a system where 1 administrative error is a severe problem but 8 million parolees is not and they can stop a president from enforcing the law with excessive hearings. I don't think it's a policy problem. We don't really have policy anymore. Once a year we vote on a budget. We have something like judicial precedence and outcomes for things like immigration and immigrant rights are determined entirely by lawyers.

mattnewton 1y ago

That's comparing apples to lemonade. Mayorkas impeachment centered on alleged systemic refusal to comply with immigration laws (ie, basically policy disputes), that the Senate did not agree with. To my knowledge he never refused a court order or defied a court order. Kristi Noem was ordered 9-0 by the supreme court to return a man who lower courts found was unlawfully deported to a foreign supermax prison, and has told anyone who asks that she has no intent to every comply with the ruling to return him because she does not recognize the authority of the court here. This goes well beyond the partisan political maneuvering of Mayorkas impeachment. These are not equivalent cases at all, and this administration's behavior is a marketed departure from the state department's enforcement of the laws before. You could separately argue it's a warranted departure, but I cannot see how arguing it's business as usual and just made to look bad by the media follows.

onetimeusename 1y ago
Regarding Mayorkas there's this: https://homeland.house.gov/2023/06/20/what-they-are-saying-homeland-republicans-launch-mayorkas-investigation-with-preliminary-report-full-committee-hearing/ https://homeland.house.gov/2023/06/20/what-they-are-saying-h... which mentions ignoring court orders. I am not arguing what Trump or Biden/Mayorkas did is business-as-usual. No, I think Trump messed up and he personally seems to disregard the limits of the executive branch. But, according to AI, 8 million people were encountered crossing the border under the last term so let's say at least 8 million people made the journey making it one of the largest human migrations in world history. What I am arguing is that there are people, maybe as many as half the country, who are in favor of it happening and that concerns about immigrant rights to seek asylum and due process are actually an attempt to launder an open borders agenda through legal procedures. Meaning, I think when you get to 8 million arrivals, the concerns about ensuring due process for asylum claims we can kind of tell are bogus that maybe this wasn't just an uncontrollable event and you either committed negligence or... favored it happening and worked to ensure more of it. What happened to Garcia seems like an administrative error, sure. But it also seems like splitting hairs because he was probably going to be deported regardless so comparing the situation to a fascist dictatorship to me is disingenuous. Is it an error? yes. Were his rights denied? Yes, in a technical sense. Are we now a lawless dictatorship? No, and where was anyone saying this for other presidencies? I actually just think people are upset that the migration they favored is being reversed.
- mattnewton 1y ago
  The article reiterates allegations house republicans made that the Senate did not affirm. I am unable to find the specific court orders he was in violation with, just this repeated assertion. Again, you can argue against the policy of Mayorkas, but neither the courts nor the legislature ultimately seem to have found him in violation of the law. And all I was arguing with was that this was not business as usual and the media is not making something out of nothing. This is a big change in policy. What happened to Garcia is really not splitting hairs and I really encourage you to look into the case more thoroughly. He was under a court order _not_ to be deported because he had credibly made the case to the courts that he was in danger from the very gangs the government later accused him of being a member of. The executive branch is unambiguously ignoring the Supreme Court currently. This is the most salient and unambigious example I am aware of, but there are many additional cases and actions of the government in the same direction. I can only conclude the court system is not working as an equal branch and a check on the executive right now based on the statements and actions of the adminstration. I am not arguing the policy, I'm arguing that the checks and balances of the US government are being ignored in pursuit of the policy. The bill of rights, especially around due process, is being interpreted to not apply to foreigners. And that is alarming if you wanted to visit the US and believed those checks and balances would be in force. People have been saying the executive branch has been needed too much power since Bush jr. No president since then has meaningfully rolled back executive power, and they deserve some criticism for it. But the increased criticism of Trump's second term is not for nothing. I believe ignoring the courts is actually acting like a dictator, even for a policy (cracking down at the border) that the polls I've seen show majority of Americans support. How you execute a policy matters.
  - onetimeusename 1y ago
    It seems the issue was that a lower court tried to force DHS to enforce laws which Texas and other states argued he was not doing and a judge agreed. The SC struck that ruling down and said the states lacked standing and courts can't order the executive to enforce the law. To me that's kind of a weird outcome. I think that gets at what I am talking about. There's a letter and a spirit of the law. Under legalistic procedural reasoning it is totally normal and not illegal at all that at least 8 million people turned up and were able to claim asylum. However, it is authoritarian to make an administrative error that causes someone to not have exhaustive hearings. I think that gets to my point here which is whether it's possible for lawyers to launder an agenda through legal procedures. Yes, Trump's admin violated rights but the overall big picture is that lawyers can create a system where 1 administrative error is a severe problem but 8 million parolees is not and they can stop a president from enforcing the law with excessive hearings. I don't think it's a policy problem. We don't really have policy anymore. Once a year we vote on a budget. We have something like judicial precedence and outcomes for things like immigration and immigrant rights are determined entirely by lawyers.