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Which Palestinian politicians did the IDF assassinate? It's true that Netanyahu likely wanted to divide and conquer so benefited somewhat from having the Hamas

by YZF 1y ago

Which Palestinian politicians did the IDF assassinate? It's true that Netanyahu likely wanted to divide and conquer so benefited somewhat from having the Hamas in Gaza and the Fatah/PA in the West Bank but really the alternative to Hamas in Gaza were other armed factions or chaos, it wasn't like the PA was going to retake it if Netanyahu prevented funds from getting into Gaza. There was also a lot of international pressure to allow those funds in to "rebuild" Gaza. So that story has a lot more nuance to it. So yes, the Israeli right benefited from the lack of a unified Palestinian government but that was not the sole reason why Israel did [not] try to forcibly remove Hamas and tighten the transfer of funds and aid to Gaza. Also worth noting that all this calculus was after the Hamas took control that was a result of Israel's leaving. Sharon did not intend for this to happen, his intention was to try and prove that Israel can end the conflict by unilaterally withdrawing. The main reason why there wasn't another election was because the PA didn't want to have one because it would have lost to Hamas.

lazyasciiart 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Assassinated_Palestinian_politicians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Assassinated_Palestin... It is a new take to me that the party not in power was able to prevent elections happening because they were not popular enough.
- dlubarov 1y ago
  You said "assassinations by the IDF", not just "assassinations". You also mentioned "directly funding Hamas" which isn't accurate. You might be thinking of when Israel facilitated a transfer of funds from Qatar, ostensibly for some humanitarian projects in Gaza, not really for Hamas. It was Hamas' decision to violently seize power, overthrowing the multi-party democracy that Gaza was intended to have; I don't really see how that could be Israel's fault.
  - komali2 1y ago
    You're confusing the two of us as being the same person. You were provided a list of Palestinian politicians who have been assassinated, which is the first link on an incognito mode Google search for "Palestinian politicians assassinated by the IDF." If you click the names of the people in the list you can learn more, including who specifically have been assassinated by the IDF. Frankly I'm incredulous that the burden of proof for you requires us to click Wikipedia links for you... Surely on this website we can operate in better faith than that? In any case the discussion was about the intervention of powerful imperialist nations. The Wobblies decided to seize power in the USA, overthrow democracy, and turn it into a communist state. America today remains not a communist state - clearly the desires of a given group are a simple baseline requirement for results, there needs to be a bit more stuff to actualize. Such as, in this case, the intervention of Israel to prop up Hamas to prevent an organized political identity between the West Bank and Gaza. In the context of the article it makes me wonder about the role of an army both in defending an army but also how it could be leveraged to destabilize democracy - in this case on the one hand Hamas has an army that was used to destabilize Palestinian democracy, on the other it's now one of the only groups on earth taking military efforts to defend Palestine against Israel's genocide against Palestinians. I think it's an interesting thing to consider in the context of the USA - how might the military there, being the most powerful in Earth's history, be used to defend, or destabilize, that country?
    - komali2 1y ago
      The role of an army in defending a democracy* not defending an army
    - YZF 1y ago
      I clicked through to your list. First name. "Hayel Abdul Hamid" head of security for Fatah. - Not a political leader/politician. Head of security for Fatah is a combatant role. - The perpetrator was Hamza Abu Said, a Palestinian bodyguard, who had been born in Wahdat refuge camp, Jordan, in 1963. So he wasn't assassinated by the IDF, he was assassinated by another Palestinian faction! Tunisia, January 1991, not relevant at all to this discussion/question. > Surely on this website we can operate in better faith than that? Apparently not? Let's examine in the context of the original statements: "One interesting note about the Hamas example is that it was the last election for the same reason a lot of countries have a last election: a powerful foreign imperialist nation intervened. In this case, Israel intervened directly to prop up Hamas in order to ensure Palestine destabilizion and prevent the election of a more leftist government. This was achieved through assassinations by the IDF of Palestinian politicians as well as directly funding Hamas." "Which Palestinian politicians did the IDF assassinate?" Yes, the burden is on you to provide support for the false claim that the elections of a more leftist government is somehow prevented by the IDF assassination of Palestinian politicians. Since we're trading Wikipedia links here's an actual relevant one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e...
- YZF 1y ago
  It was the PA that blocked the elections. Hamas could have had elections in Gaza but the previous elections were held across the West Bank and Gaza (and IIRC east Jerusalem). You're probably not aware but despite Hamas winning the previous elections it doesn't control the West Bank. Hamas could have held elections in Gaza and won them. But I mean Putin also holds elections in Russia and wins them Egypt and Syria also used to have "elections". Interestingly enough Putin might actually also win truly free elections though killing your opponents and removing them from the ballot certainly makes things easier.

by YZF 1y ago

lazyasciiart 1y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Assassinated_Palestinian_politicians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Assassinated_Palestin... It is a new take to me that the party not in power was able to prevent elections happening because they were not popular enough.

dlubarov 1y ago
You said "assassinations by the IDF", not just "assassinations". You also mentioned "directly funding Hamas" which isn't accurate. You might be thinking of when Israel facilitated a transfer of funds from Qatar, ostensibly for some humanitarian projects in Gaza, not really for Hamas. It was Hamas' decision to violently seize power, overthrowing the multi-party democracy that Gaza was intended to have; I don't really see how that could be Israel's fault.
- komali2 1y ago
  You're confusing the two of us as being the same person. You were provided a list of Palestinian politicians who have been assassinated, which is the first link on an incognito mode Google search for "Palestinian politicians assassinated by the IDF." If you click the names of the people in the list you can learn more, including who specifically have been assassinated by the IDF. Frankly I'm incredulous that the burden of proof for you requires us to click Wikipedia links for you... Surely on this website we can operate in better faith than that? In any case the discussion was about the intervention of powerful imperialist nations. The Wobblies decided to seize power in the USA, overthrow democracy, and turn it into a communist state. America today remains not a communist state - clearly the desires of a given group are a simple baseline requirement for results, there needs to be a bit more stuff to actualize. Such as, in this case, the intervention of Israel to prop up Hamas to prevent an organized political identity between the West Bank and Gaza. In the context of the article it makes me wonder about the role of an army both in defending an army but also how it could be leveraged to destabilize democracy - in this case on the one hand Hamas has an army that was used to destabilize Palestinian democracy, on the other it's now one of the only groups on earth taking military efforts to defend Palestine against Israel's genocide against Palestinians. I think it's an interesting thing to consider in the context of the USA - how might the military there, being the most powerful in Earth's history, be used to defend, or destabilize, that country?
  - komali2 1y ago
    The role of an army in defending a democracy* not defending an army
  - YZF 1y ago
    I clicked through to your list. First name. "Hayel Abdul Hamid" head of security for Fatah. - Not a political leader/politician. Head of security for Fatah is a combatant role. - The perpetrator was Hamza Abu Said, a Palestinian bodyguard, who had been born in Wahdat refuge camp, Jordan, in 1963. So he wasn't assassinated by the IDF, he was assassinated by another Palestinian faction! Tunisia, January 1991, not relevant at all to this discussion/question. > Surely on this website we can operate in better faith than that? Apparently not? Let's examine in the context of the original statements: "One interesting note about the Hamas example is that it was the last election for the same reason a lot of countries have a last election: a powerful foreign imperialist nation intervened. In this case, Israel intervened directly to prop up Hamas in order to ensure Palestine destabilizion and prevent the election of a more leftist government. This was achieved through assassinations by the IDF of Palestinian politicians as well as directly funding Hamas." "Which Palestinian politicians did the IDF assassinate?" Yes, the burden is on you to provide support for the false claim that the elections of a more leftist government is somehow prevented by the IDF assassination of Palestinian politicians. Since we're trading Wikipedia links here's an actual relevant one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e...
YZF 1y ago
It was the PA that blocked the elections. Hamas could have had elections in Gaza but the previous elections were held across the West Bank and Gaza (and IIRC east Jerusalem). You're probably not aware but despite Hamas winning the previous elections it doesn't control the West Bank. Hamas could have held elections in Gaza and won them. But I mean Putin also holds elections in Russia and wins them Egypt and Syria also used to have "elections". Interestingly enough Putin might actually also win truly free elections though killing your opponents and removing them from the ballot certainly makes things easier.