5 ms·

I think another reason might just be: simplicity. A lot of these older games are much easier to pick up and grok. I remember I used to play a ton of Battlefiel

I think another reason might just be: simplicity. A lot of these older games are much easier to pick up and grok. I remember I used to play a ton of Battlefield 1942 back in the day (like, in a competitive clan, going to LAN parties, that kind of thing). I tried picking up Battlefield V but I just gave up because it felt like there was just too much going on. It probably has a host of other great things, but my main reaction playing it was this is too much and I'm overwhelmed, and that's coming from someone that grew up on competitive multiplayer games.

luisgvv 1y ago
You just described my experience with MOBA games like League of Legends and Dota. Around 15 years ago there were only about 50-60 playable characters. Nowadays there are more than 100 and more items and customizations. As for shooters this is the same. Too many weapons classes and subclasses, maps, game modes eventually divide and distract the playerbase from the core essence of the game. I think this is one of the reasons that you still see Counter Strike still around.
- epolanski 1y ago
  +1 I can relate completely. I am a season 1 veteran, and even though I'd like to keep playing League, I only want to play some games per week at best But without keeping up with the constant changes you can't play well, you lose matchups because with this and that change now Renekton loses to Camille lvl 7 even though it used to be the opposite just weeks before. I now play only chess for this reason, I need an online game that I can master through my life without having to keep up with weekly meta changes
- hulitu 1y ago
  > As for shooters this is the same. Worse. Why do i need to chat with a character in a FPS ? This is not an RPG.
- MrJagil 1y ago
  I play dota 1 again now! https://firstbloodgaming.com/ https://firstbloodgaming.com/
wellthisisgreat 1y ago
BFV and 6 and all that are just bad tbh, I can’t imagine a competitive BF1/5/6 etc scene at all- it’s either aim assist hell, or just lowest common denominator of a gaming experience that stuffs you with stimuli and leaves 0 room for any tactics and communication let alone strategy. For BF1942 adjacent experience try Hell Let Loose it’s really quite brilliant (and modern)
- quinnirill 1y ago
  IMO at least on PC, BFV was occasionally a really good shooter, but it was a constant back and forth between updates that ruined the entire game and new swathes of cheaters on the latest exploit not caught by the anti-cheat, until eventually they stopped even trying to stop them.
- programd 1y ago
  In fact Hell Let Loose is a direct copy - or let us just say homage - of the Reality Mod for Battlefield 3. It's a fantastic game because its roots are in fan made enhancements to the already fine Battlefield games of that era. I'd call it the thinking persons Battlefield. On the other hand if you want a fun, borderline infringing clone of Battlefield 2042 give Delta Force a try. BF 2042 has about 8,000 daily players now, Delta Force 150,000. Clearly they are doing something right that EA could not with the last BF series entry.
  - wellthisisgreat 1y ago
    Hmm, I looked at Delta force and I think it’s more of an Escape from Tarkov (EFT) clone in a Call of Duty flavor. Tarkov is probably the deepest / most engaging FPS of the last decade if not more, so I didn’t really consider its clone - EFTs greatness comes not from its extraction shooter formula but from the unprecedented attention to detail that puts GTA environments to shame. GTA has the macro at, let’s say “district scale” but EFT is unparalleled at street / house scale. It’s the first game where traversing levels makes me at least think about my actions in the context of real world navigation and not game navigation. I think it’s thanks to: no map, the detailed design, and the fact that many areas are modeled after real locations. It really is quite crazy.
woolion 1y ago
It's interesting because the main trend in game-design is to 'streamline' and 'simplify'. The result is basically that they did the opposite of what we want to achieve in software design: modern game systems are shallow and complicated rather than deep and complex. One reason is that the older games that are still successful have emergent gameplay -- strategies that weren't planned by the developers but could be found by exploring the space. If it's so simple to make this analysis, why are these games affected by this problem? Because of business decisions. The games need to make players jump to new installments. To do this, they need a compelling reason other than 'we need you to pay full price again', so they introduce new mechanics. After 20 years of bloat where developers are afraid of abandoning the mechanics from previous generations a lot of systems became both too complex and too complicated, so they simplified by planning out the viable strategies, which generally collapse the hierarchy of strategy layers player could adopt. This homogenizing force is also greatly driven by e-sports/streaming, where games are designed to be enjoyed as a spectator. E-sports players want homogeneous strategies as it simplifies greatly adapting to the meta. Tl;dr: it's a business problem of carrying the whole history of the genre to gather existing players. To simplify would mean take greater, explicit risk, and the industry has become risk-averse because of how much they've generally mismanaged themselves. If you take Street Fighter 2, the game that laid the blueprint for all mainstream fighting game, there are a few important rules you want to know, like Dragon Punch having startup invincibility. Even then, if you don't want to learn, the game is instinctively approachable. The Street Fighter series introduced 'supers' that need meter to be used, and then systems to have options in how to spend that meter, which introduce some balance issues needing to have more options available in defense. So, in Street Fighter 6 they thus introduced "Drive Rush" with the explicit design concept of "1-button attack". So now you have 2 gauges, the gauge gauge and the drive gauge. But as the concept lays out, Drive Rush is extremely powerful, so you can't hop in without understanding how it works at a basic level. How much effort does it need to have that basic level? Just see [0]. [0] https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Gauges https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Gauges
HK-NC 1y ago
My issue wit it is the "too much" is just fluff. I'm not overwhelmed because I'm oit of my depth, in that case I'd be excited to sink my teeth into a new system, instead it's pointless or borderline offensive fluff in my face.
- fullshark 1y ago
  IDK so many strategy games now involve figuring out what stats to min-max and then even if you figure it out there's gonna be an update that rebalances things anyway so what's the point. Maybe I'm just older, but none of this seems fun.
  - 383toast 1y ago
    What strategy games don't involve min-maxing to play competitively?
    - batshit_beaver 1y ago
      Min-maxing is fine, but the endless balance patches force you to relearn the game every few months. So now you have to commit to a live service game full time, just to keep up. Or you can choose to play StarCraft or chess or something where the rules are basically frozen at this point. Much better ROI on learning these kinds of games than something like Dota.
- s1artibartfast 1y ago
  I too am getting old. Sigh...

luisgvv 1y ago

You just described my experience with MOBA games like League of Legends and Dota. Around 15 years ago there were only about 50-60 playable characters. Nowadays there are more than 100 and more items and customizations. As for shooters this is the same. Too many weapons classes and subclasses, maps, game modes eventually divide and distract the playerbase from the core essence of the game. I think this is one of the reasons that you still see Counter Strike still around.

epolanski 1y ago
+1 I can relate completely. I am a season 1 veteran, and even though I'd like to keep playing League, I only want to play some games per week at best But without keeping up with the constant changes you can't play well, you lose matchups because with this and that change now Renekton loses to Camille lvl 7 even though it used to be the opposite just weeks before. I now play only chess for this reason, I need an online game that I can master through my life without having to keep up with weekly meta changes
hulitu 1y ago
> As for shooters this is the same. Worse. Why do i need to chat with a character in a FPS ? This is not an RPG.
MrJagil 1y ago
I play dota 1 again now! https://firstbloodgaming.com/ https://firstbloodgaming.com/

wellthisisgreat 1y ago

BFV and 6 and all that are just bad tbh, I can’t imagine a competitive BF1/5/6 etc scene at all- it’s either aim assist hell, or just lowest common denominator of a gaming experience that stuffs you with stimuli and leaves 0 room for any tactics and communication let alone strategy. For BF1942 adjacent experience try Hell Let Loose it’s really quite brilliant (and modern)

quinnirill 1y ago
IMO at least on PC, BFV was occasionally a really good shooter, but it was a constant back and forth between updates that ruined the entire game and new swathes of cheaters on the latest exploit not caught by the anti-cheat, until eventually they stopped even trying to stop them.
programd 1y ago
In fact Hell Let Loose is a direct copy - or let us just say homage - of the Reality Mod for Battlefield 3. It's a fantastic game because its roots are in fan made enhancements to the already fine Battlefield games of that era. I'd call it the thinking persons Battlefield. On the other hand if you want a fun, borderline infringing clone of Battlefield 2042 give Delta Force a try. BF 2042 has about 8,000 daily players now, Delta Force 150,000. Clearly they are doing something right that EA could not with the last BF series entry.
- wellthisisgreat 1y ago
  Hmm, I looked at Delta force and I think it’s more of an Escape from Tarkov (EFT) clone in a Call of Duty flavor. Tarkov is probably the deepest / most engaging FPS of the last decade if not more, so I didn’t really consider its clone - EFTs greatness comes not from its extraction shooter formula but from the unprecedented attention to detail that puts GTA environments to shame. GTA has the macro at, let’s say “district scale” but EFT is unparalleled at street / house scale. It’s the first game where traversing levels makes me at least think about my actions in the context of real world navigation and not game navigation. I think it’s thanks to: no map, the detailed design, and the fact that many areas are modeled after real locations. It really is quite crazy.

woolion 1y ago

It's interesting because the main trend in game-design is to 'streamline' and 'simplify'. The result is basically that they did the opposite of what we want to achieve in software design: modern game systems are shallow and complicated rather than deep and complex. One reason is that the older games that are still successful have emergent gameplay -- strategies that weren't planned by the developers but could be found by exploring the space. If it's so simple to make this analysis, why are these games affected by this problem? Because of business decisions. The games need to make players jump to new installments. To do this, they need a compelling reason other than 'we need you to pay full price again', so they introduce new mechanics. After 20 years of bloat where developers are afraid of abandoning the mechanics from previous generations a lot of systems became both too complex and too complicated, so they simplified by planning out the viable strategies, which generally collapse the hierarchy of strategy layers player could adopt. This homogenizing force is also greatly driven by e-sports/streaming, where games are designed to be enjoyed as a spectator. E-sports players want homogeneous strategies as it simplifies greatly adapting to the meta. Tl;dr: it's a business problem of carrying the whole history of the genre to gather existing players. To simplify would mean take greater, explicit risk, and the industry has become risk-averse because of how much they've generally mismanaged themselves. If you take Street Fighter 2, the game that laid the blueprint for all mainstream fighting game, there are a few important rules you want to know, like Dragon Punch having startup invincibility. Even then, if you don't want to learn, the game is instinctively approachable. The Street Fighter series introduced 'supers' that need meter to be used, and then systems to have options in how to spend that meter, which introduce some balance issues needing to have more options available in defense. So, in Street Fighter 6 they thus introduced "Drive Rush" with the explicit design concept of "1-button attack". So now you have 2 gauges, the gauge gauge and the drive gauge. But as the concept lays out, Drive Rush is extremely powerful, so you can't hop in without understanding how it works at a basic level. How much effort does it need to have that basic level? Just see [0]. [0] https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Gauges https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Gauges

HK-NC 1y ago

My issue wit it is the "too much" is just fluff. I'm not overwhelmed because I'm oit of my depth, in that case I'd be excited to sink my teeth into a new system, instead it's pointless or borderline offensive fluff in my face.

fullshark 1y ago
IDK so many strategy games now involve figuring out what stats to min-max and then even if you figure it out there's gonna be an update that rebalances things anyway so what's the point. Maybe I'm just older, but none of this seems fun.
- 383toast 1y ago
  What strategy games don't involve min-maxing to play competitively?
  - batshit_beaver 1y ago
    Min-maxing is fine, but the endless balance patches force you to relearn the game every few months. So now you have to commit to a live service game full time, just to keep up. Or you can choose to play StarCraft or chess or something where the rules are basically frozen at this point. Much better ROI on learning these kinds of games than something like Dota.
s1artibartfast 1y ago
I too am getting old. Sigh...