3 ms·

How much can you assure them there will be minimal due process if there is a problem?

by cma 1y ago

anonymousiam 1y ago
What you should be asking is; what would happen if I illegally immigrated to some country other than the US, where they have no guarantee of due process?
- redserk 1y ago
  Since when is visiting a conference illegally immigrating? Typically folks who attend conferences fly over, stay the week, maybe even stay for another week as a vacation, then head back. If anything, this is in the territory of acquiring a temporary visa.
  - anonymousiam 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - redserk 1y ago
      I’m confused by what point you’re trying to make because it isn’t relevant to the article. It is possible to address illegal immigration in a manner that doesn’t deter those visiting who will very likely return. Unfortunately whether it is the result of agency-wide policy changes or a few rogue officers, there’s certainly some new anxiety up for those wanting to travel here.
      - anonymousiam 1y ago
        What exactly is deterring visitors, other than their dislike for the immigration enforcement policy of the new US administration? From what I've been seeing, legal immigration and tourism are being strongly encouraged.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        The fact that at least 50 or so legal immigrants have been deported to an El Salvadorean torture camp, likely for the rest of their lives? https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva... The fact that legal immigrants have been detained, prevented from attending the birth of their children or from holding their newborn, because they engaged in 1st Amendment protected speech? https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mahmoud-khalil-to-hold-his-newborn-son https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mah... Or that when people's visas are unilaterally cancelled for no reason and then they show up at the border for entry, they may be held in solitary confinement for 9 days and given several mutually-exclusive (and all factually incorrect) rationale's for the cancellation while being prevented from contacting their family or lawyers? https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche-45-days-us-detention-border-ice-trump/ https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche... > So basically, when we passed the Border Control they separated us and asked me to come with them to a room where they were going to ask me a couple of questions. After that they said my visa has been cancelled and I can’t get in the US this time. I got to another room where I had an interview and they took my fingerprints and photos of my face. And then they brought me “downstairs” until I [could] get my flight back to Germany. “Downstairs” was the cell where I was in solitary confinement for nine days. It took me some days to understand that it wasn’t that easy to get my ticket back, as there was no cooperation in helping me or letting me call someone who could get the ticket for me. You don’t have access to your phone or the internet in that cell. I am very curious: have you just not heard of these instances? Or you have and you think they are not serious deterrents to legitimate travel to the US?
        anonymousiam 1y ago
        You've left out a lot of important facts. BTW, my wife is a legal immigrant, and I helped her mother become one too. A legal immigrant is not yet a citizen, and they must petition the government for citizenship, a process that takes about five years from my personal experience. Up until the immigrant becomes a citizen, their petition can be revoked for any number of reasons, such as criminal activity. If the petition is revoked and they stay, they're still a "legal immigrant" by your definition I guess, because they originally immigrated legally. Also, MANY countries have denied or cancelled visas over "free speech" from the applicant. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y4ylw3rq5o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y4ylw3rq5o
    - tdeck 1y ago
      Mahmoud Khalil has a green card (meaning he is a permanent resident) and has been in ICE detention since March 8th. How can you pretend this is about violating immigration law?
      - eschaton 1y ago
        The simplest explanation is that they perceive “violating immigration law” and “saying something publicly that the current administration disapproves of” as being the same thing and are completely comfortable with that.
        computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
    - eschaton 1y ago
      [flagged]
UncleOxidant 1y ago
I think they'd want to be assured that there would be maximal due process.
- tsimionescu 1y ago
  I think the point was that, if there is a problem, you don't currently have a guarantee of even a minimal due process, as a foreigner at the US border.
  - TheCoelacanth 1y ago
    You don't have a guarantee of due process even as a citizen in your own home. Multiple citizens have already been deported. If you don't even have to prove in court that someone is in the country illegally before deporting them then no one is safe.
    - tsimionescu 1y ago
      I follow quite a bit of news on this from very anti-Trump, pro-immigration outlets and have not heard of actual citizens being deported yet, only legal permanent residents. Do you have any source, per chance? Not that I would be surprised - given the lack of due process, it's easy to miss the fact that someone is actually a citizen. And of course, Trump has signed the unconstitutional executive order mandating that ICE should treat citizens that acquired their citizenship by jus soli be treated as non-citizens (if they were born on US soil to non-citizen parents) - so he clearly intends to deport some citizens.
      - TheCoelacanth 1y ago
        https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/tracking-us-citizens-children-detained-deported-ice-trump-updates.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/tracking-us-citizens...

How much can you assure them there will be minimal due process if there is a problem?

by cma 1y ago

How much can you assure them there will be minimal due process if there is a problem?

What you should be asking is; what would happen if I illegally immigrated to some country other than the US, where they have no guarantee of due process?

redserk 1y ago
Since when is visiting a conference illegally immigrating? Typically folks who attend conferences fly over, stay the week, maybe even stay for another week as a vacation, then head back. If anything, this is in the territory of acquiring a temporary visa.
- anonymousiam 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - redserk 1y ago
    I’m confused by what point you’re trying to make because it isn’t relevant to the article. It is possible to address illegal immigration in a manner that doesn’t deter those visiting who will very likely return. Unfortunately whether it is the result of agency-wide policy changes or a few rogue officers, there’s certainly some new anxiety up for those wanting to travel here.
    - anonymousiam 1y ago
      What exactly is deterring visitors, other than their dislike for the immigration enforcement policy of the new US administration? From what I've been seeing, legal immigration and tourism are being strongly encouraged.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        The fact that at least 50 or so legal immigrants have been deported to an El Salvadorean torture camp, likely for the rest of their lives? https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva... The fact that legal immigrants have been detained, prevented from attending the birth of their children or from holding their newborn, because they engaged in 1st Amendment protected speech? https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mahmoud-khalil-to-hold-his-newborn-son https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mah... Or that when people's visas are unilaterally cancelled for no reason and then they show up at the border for entry, they may be held in solitary confinement for 9 days and given several mutually-exclusive (and all factually incorrect) rationale's for the cancellation while being prevented from contacting their family or lawyers? https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche-45-days-us-detention-border-ice-trump/ https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche... > So basically, when we passed the Border Control they separated us and asked me to come with them to a room where they were going to ask me a couple of questions. After that they said my visa has been cancelled and I can’t get in the US this time. I got to another room where I had an interview and they took my fingerprints and photos of my face. And then they brought me “downstairs” until I [could] get my flight back to Germany. “Downstairs” was the cell where I was in solitary confinement for nine days. It took me some days to understand that it wasn’t that easy to get my ticket back, as there was no cooperation in helping me or letting me call someone who could get the ticket for me. You don’t have access to your phone or the internet in that cell. I am very curious: have you just not heard of these instances? Or you have and you think they are not serious deterrents to legitimate travel to the US?
        anonymousiam 1y ago
        You've left out a lot of important facts. BTW, my wife is a legal immigrant, and I helped her mother become one too. A legal immigrant is not yet a citizen, and they must petition the government for citizenship, a process that takes about five years from my personal experience. Up until the immigrant becomes a citizen, their petition can be revoked for any number of reasons, such as criminal activity. If the petition is revoked and they stay, they're still a "legal immigrant" by your definition I guess, because they originally immigrated legally. Also, MANY countries have denied or cancelled visas over "free speech" from the applicant. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y4ylw3rq5o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y4ylw3rq5o
  - tdeck 1y ago
    Mahmoud Khalil has a green card (meaning he is a permanent resident) and has been in ICE detention since March 8th. How can you pretend this is about violating immigration law?
    - eschaton 1y ago
      The simplest explanation is that they perceive “violating immigration law” and “saying something publicly that the current administration disapproves of” as being the same thing and are completely comfortable with that.
      - computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
  - eschaton 1y ago
    [flagged]

UncleOxidant 1y ago

I think they'd want to be assured that there would be maximal due process.

tsimionescu 1y ago
I think the point was that, if there is a problem, you don't currently have a guarantee of even a minimal due process, as a foreigner at the US border.
- TheCoelacanth 1y ago
  You don't have a guarantee of due process even as a citizen in your own home. Multiple citizens have already been deported. If you don't even have to prove in court that someone is in the country illegally before deporting them then no one is safe.
  - tsimionescu 1y ago
    I follow quite a bit of news on this from very anti-Trump, pro-immigration outlets and have not heard of actual citizens being deported yet, only legal permanent residents. Do you have any source, per chance? Not that I would be surprised - given the lack of due process, it's easy to miss the fact that someone is actually a citizen. And of course, Trump has signed the unconstitutional executive order mandating that ICE should treat citizens that acquired their citizenship by jus soli be treated as non-citizens (if they were born on US soil to non-citizen parents) - so he clearly intends to deport some citizens.
    - TheCoelacanth 1y ago
      https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/tracking-us-citizens-children-detained-deported-ice-trump-updates.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/tracking-us-citizens...