4 ms·

This article seems like political flamebait. Most scientists are rational people. If they obey US immigration rules, they SHOULD never have a problem. There

This article seems like political flamebait. Most scientists are rational people. If they obey US immigration rules, they SHOULD never have a problem. There have recently been a few horrifying stories where this wasn't the case, but those are the exception and not the rule.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
> A rational person would totally be fine with a non-zero chance of being sent to an El Salvadorean torture camp for the rest of their lives with no due process even when directly ordered by the Supreme Court of the United States... the chance of it happening to you is probably pretty low (though of course we actually don't have a good way to know since people are being whisked away without even chances to contact their lawyers)! It's crazy how common the meme of "aloofness signals intelligence" has become among the folks at the top of the bell curve.
- eschaton 1y ago
  Folks who believe themselves to be at the top of the bell curve.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Ah sorry, maybe unclear. I meant "top" on the y-axis. The most average-est of thinkers!
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
cma 1y ago
How much can you assure them there will be minimal due process if there is a problem?
- anonymousiam 1y ago
  What you should be asking is; what would happen if I illegally immigrated to some country other than the US, where they have no guarantee of due process?
  - redserk 1y ago
    Since when is visiting a conference illegally immigrating? Typically folks who attend conferences fly over, stay the week, maybe even stay for another week as a vacation, then head back. If anything, this is in the territory of acquiring a temporary visa.
    - anonymousiam 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - redserk 1y ago
        I’m confused by what point you’re trying to make because it isn’t relevant to the article. It is possible to address illegal immigration in a manner that doesn’t deter those visiting who will very likely return. Unfortunately whether it is the result of agency-wide policy changes or a few rogue officers, there’s certainly some new anxiety up for those wanting to travel here.
        anonymousiam 1y ago
        What exactly is deterring visitors, other than their dislike for the immigration enforcement policy of the new US administration? From what I've been seeing, legal immigration and tourism are being strongly encouraged.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        The fact that at least 50 or so legal immigrants have been deported to an El Salvadorean torture camp, likely for the rest of their lives? https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva... The fact that legal immigrants have been detained, prevented from attending the birth of their children or from holding their newborn, because they engaged in 1st Amendment protected speech? https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mahmoud-khalil-to-hold-his-newborn-son https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mah... Or that when people's visas are unilaterally cancelled for no reason and then they show up at the border for entry, they may be held in solitary confinement for 9 days and given several mutually-exclusive (and all factually incorrect) rationale's for the cancellation while being prevented from contacting their family or lawyers? https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche-45-days-us-detention-border-ice-trump/ https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche... > So basically, when we passed the Border Control they separated us and asked me to come with them to a room where they were going to ask me a couple of questions. After that they said my visa has been cancelled and I can’t get in the US this time. I got to another room where I had an interview and they took my fingerprints and photos of my face. And then they brought me “downstairs” until I [could] get my flight back to Germany. “Downstairs” was the cell where I was in solitary confinement for nine days. It took me some days to understand that it wasn’t that easy to get my ticket back, as there was no cooperation in helping me or letting me call someone who could get the ticket for me. You don’t have access to your phone or the internet in that cell. I am very curious: have you just not heard of these instances? Or you have and you think they are not serious deterrents to legitimate travel to the US?
cozzyd 1y ago
I can tell you my European colleagues have reservations about attending collaboration meetings in the US
dennis_jeeves2 1y ago
>Most scientists are rational people. I suspect not.
tsimionescu 1y ago
> If they obey US immigration rules, they SHOULD never have a problem. Sure, they SHOULD never have a problem. But, increasingly under Trump, they MIGHT have a problem despite this, especially if they are not white and/or come from a country that Trump is currently feuding with, and/or have publicly spoken out against Trump, Netanyahu, or their allies. One shouldn't base any serious decision on how things SHOULD be.
rsynnott 1y ago
The thing is, while the chances of any one individual having trouble are relatively low (unless they're trans, in which case they may simply not have the papers that the US is now demanding), the chances of them having this sort of trouble (arbitrary detention etc) in a normal country is far, far lower. Also, these things are organised in advance, often years in advance. Honestly, who knows what it'll look like a couple years down the line.
hn_acker 1y ago
> There have recently been a few horrifying stories where this wasn't the case, but those are the exception and not the rule. You made a political statement here that might not be flamebait but is just as careless of reality as flamebait: not only because it ignores the number of people affected in each story (in the worst case, 50 people who literally followed the legal immigration process and still got "deported" to prisons in a different country than the one they came from [1]), but because your idea of "a few" is not mutually exclusive to someone else's idea of "too many". Your "SHOULD never have a problem" is a motte to the `most likely won't have a problem` bailey. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva...

sorcerer-mar 1y ago

> A rational person would totally be fine with a non-zero chance of being sent to an El Salvadorean torture camp for the rest of their lives with no due process even when directly ordered by the Supreme Court of the United States... the chance of it happening to you is probably pretty low (though of course we actually don't have a good way to know since people are being whisked away without even chances to contact their lawyers)! It's crazy how common the meme of "aloofness signals intelligence" has become among the folks at the top of the bell curve.

eschaton 1y ago
Folks who believe themselves to be at the top of the bell curve.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  Ah sorry, maybe unclear. I meant "top" on the y-axis. The most average-est of thinkers!
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

cma 1y ago

How much can you assure them there will be minimal due process if there is a problem?

anonymousiam 1y ago
What you should be asking is; what would happen if I illegally immigrated to some country other than the US, where they have no guarantee of due process?
- redserk 1y ago
  Since when is visiting a conference illegally immigrating? Typically folks who attend conferences fly over, stay the week, maybe even stay for another week as a vacation, then head back. If anything, this is in the territory of acquiring a temporary visa.
  - anonymousiam 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - redserk 1y ago
      I’m confused by what point you’re trying to make because it isn’t relevant to the article. It is possible to address illegal immigration in a manner that doesn’t deter those visiting who will very likely return. Unfortunately whether it is the result of agency-wide policy changes or a few rogue officers, there’s certainly some new anxiety up for those wanting to travel here.
      - anonymousiam 1y ago
        What exactly is deterring visitors, other than their dislike for the immigration enforcement policy of the new US administration? From what I've been seeing, legal immigration and tourism are being strongly encouraged.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        The fact that at least 50 or so legal immigrants have been deported to an El Salvadorean torture camp, likely for the rest of their lives? https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva... The fact that legal immigrants have been detained, prevented from attending the birth of their children or from holding their newborn, because they engaged in 1st Amendment protected speech? https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mahmoud-khalil-to-hold-his-newborn-son https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice-refuses-to-allow-mah... Or that when people's visas are unilaterally cancelled for no reason and then they show up at the border for entry, they may be held in solitary confinement for 9 days and given several mutually-exclusive (and all factually incorrect) rationale's for the cancellation while being prevented from contacting their family or lawyers? https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche-45-days-us-detention-border-ice-trump/ https://www.the-berliner.com/politics/berlin-jessica-brosche... > So basically, when we passed the Border Control they separated us and asked me to come with them to a room where they were going to ask me a couple of questions. After that they said my visa has been cancelled and I can’t get in the US this time. I got to another room where I had an interview and they took my fingerprints and photos of my face. And then they brought me “downstairs” until I [could] get my flight back to Germany. “Downstairs” was the cell where I was in solitary confinement for nine days. It took me some days to understand that it wasn’t that easy to get my ticket back, as there was no cooperation in helping me or letting me call someone who could get the ticket for me. You don’t have access to your phone or the internet in that cell. I am very curious: have you just not heard of these instances? Or you have and you think they are not serious deterrents to legitimate travel to the US?

cozzyd 1y ago

I can tell you my European colleagues have reservations about attending collaboration meetings in the US

dennis_jeeves2 1y ago

>Most scientists are rational people. I suspect not.

tsimionescu 1y ago

> If they obey US immigration rules, they SHOULD never have a problem. Sure, they SHOULD never have a problem. But, increasingly under Trump, they MIGHT have a problem despite this, especially if they are not white and/or come from a country that Trump is currently feuding with, and/or have publicly spoken out against Trump, Netanyahu, or their allies. One shouldn't base any serious decision on how things SHOULD be.

rsynnott 1y ago

The thing is, while the chances of any one individual having trouble are relatively low (unless they're trans, in which case they may simply not have the papers that the US is now demanding), the chances of them having this sort of trouble (arbitrary detention etc) in a normal country is far, far lower. Also, these things are organised in advance, often years in advance. Honestly, who knows what it'll look like a couple years down the line.

hn_acker 1y ago

> There have recently been a few horrifying stories where this wasn't the case, but those are the exception and not the rule. You made a political statement here that might not be flamebait but is just as careless of reality as flamebait: not only because it ignores the number of people affected in each story (in the worst case, 50 people who literally followed the legal immigration process and still got "deported" to prisons in a different country than the one they came from [1]), but because your idea of "a few" is not mutually exclusive to someone else's idea of "too many". Your "SHOULD never have a problem" is a motte to the `most likely won't have a problem` bailey. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva...