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The other side four years ago: Can we say "Marxism" out loud yet or are moderates still pretending everything is fine?

by anonfordays 1y ago

mptest 1y ago
[flagged]
- anonfordays 1y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
const_cast 1y ago
Marxism is when ultra-capitalist slightly right leaning politicians make boring policies to further enrich the American capitalist class. Oh and also some token "woke" stuff that doesn't really help anyone but I guess doesn't make anything worse either. There's not a single Marxist in American politics at any level of power that matters. We have two neo-liberal parties that are both right leaning. One is ultra-right and one is ever so slightly right leaning.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  AOC and Sanders wanted a JOB GUARANTEE as part of the GND. The "one-time wealth tax" is confiscation and redistribution. That's sure as hell not capitalism. In what world is a party advocating for universal healthcare, free college, and expanded immigration "slightly right?"
  - const_cast 1y ago
    > In what world is a party advocating for universal healthcare, free college, and expanded immigration "slightly right?" 1. Most of that party is not advocating for that, those are actually fairly fringe beliefs. 2. Our fellow capitalistic allies in the west have all of that. 3. The closest things the dems tried to universal healthcare was the ACA, and despite being obvious legislation, was fought tooth and nail. You had droves of people legitimately arguing that insurers SHOULD be able to drop you for pre-existing conditions. That's how unbelievably fucking propagandized our population is. We're advocating against ourselves every day.
    - SR2Z 1y ago
      > 1. Most of that party is not advocating for that, those are actually fairly fringe beliefs. They were literally in Biden's platform. If Biden didn't stand for "most of the party" IDK what to tell you. > 2. Our fellow capitalistic allies in the west have all of that. Sort of - but they are also significantly poorer on an individual basis, and the US beats them on important quality-of-life measures (living space, degree attainment, etc.) Many of them have private healthcare systems and require students to pay for college. > 3. The closest things the dems tried to universal healthcare was the ACA, and despite being obvious legislation, was fought tooth and nail. You had droves of people legitimately arguing that insurers SHOULD be able to drop you for pre-existing conditions. That's how unbelievably fucking propagandized our population is. We're advocating against ourselves every day. Democrats are not a right-wing party because Trump or "swing voters" exist.
      - const_cast 1y ago
        > They were literally in Biden's platform Uh, no. Universal healthcare and free college were not in the platform. Expanding the ACA and programs like Medicaid is not universal healthcare. There are almost zero politicians currently advocating we completely abolish private insurers. In addition, loan forgiveness is also not free college. > Sort of - but they are also significantly poorer on an individual basis, and the US beats them on important quality-of-life measures And the US also loses on many important quality-of-life measurements. For example, we pay significantly more per person for healthcare while simultaneously having significantly worse healthcare outcomes. Gee, I wonder why? > Democrats are not a right-wing party because Trump or "swing voters" exist. My point more so was that the ACA was incredibly reasonable and obvious and still shocking unpopular. Even among the democrats, there were some at the time claiming it went too far. To this day, the ACA is still a common punching bag for a variety of politicians and constituents. Ultimately, the democrats are trying to win over moderate and on-the-fence voters. That means they're trying to be slightly more left of the republican party, but not by much. When the republican party is far-right, as it currently is, we then have to ask ourselves: where do we land if we're trying to be slightly left of that? It's not socialism, I'll tell you that.
kristopolous 1y ago
were the banks nationalized? All capital over 1 million seized and redistributed? Private property collectivized? Abandoned properties commandeered for the homeless by the state? I must have missed it. What's "communism" now? The public park? A library? What's the current communist thing that makes you couch faint?
- anonfordays 1y ago
  were the death camps created? all minorities sized and placed into camps? all members of society involved in the war effort? expansionist wars being started? I must have missed it. What's "fascism" now? Enforcing borders? Deporting illegal immigrants? What's the current fascist thing that makes you couch faint?
  - kristopolous 1y ago
    I never called it fascism. But doing things like tackling senators for asking questions in a public hearing and snatching children up off the street to send them off to forever jail doesn't look great. I'm sure you'll defend it though, this guy has an R next to his name and you're on team R! (I'm not on team D btw and never was so you can drop that pretext right now)
    - anonfordays 1y ago
      I never called it marxism. But doing things like attempting to subvert democracy by banning your opponent from running and groomimg and mutilating children doesn't look great. I'm sure you'll defend it though, this guy has an D next to his name and you're on team D! (I'm not on team R btw and never was so you can drop that pretext right now)

The other side four years ago: Can we say "Marxism" out loud yet or are moderates still pretending everything is fine?

mptest 1y ago

[flagged]

anonfordays 1y ago
[flagged]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

const_cast 1y ago

Marxism is when ultra-capitalist slightly right leaning politicians make boring policies to further enrich the American capitalist class. Oh and also some token "woke" stuff that doesn't really help anyone but I guess doesn't make anything worse either. There's not a single Marxist in American politics at any level of power that matters. We have two neo-liberal parties that are both right leaning. One is ultra-right and one is ever so slightly right leaning.

SR2Z 1y ago
AOC and Sanders wanted a JOB GUARANTEE as part of the GND. The "one-time wealth tax" is confiscation and redistribution. That's sure as hell not capitalism. In what world is a party advocating for universal healthcare, free college, and expanded immigration "slightly right?"
- const_cast 1y ago
  > In what world is a party advocating for universal healthcare, free college, and expanded immigration "slightly right?" 1. Most of that party is not advocating for that, those are actually fairly fringe beliefs. 2. Our fellow capitalistic allies in the west have all of that. 3. The closest things the dems tried to universal healthcare was the ACA, and despite being obvious legislation, was fought tooth and nail. You had droves of people legitimately arguing that insurers SHOULD be able to drop you for pre-existing conditions. That's how unbelievably fucking propagandized our population is. We're advocating against ourselves every day.
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    > 1. Most of that party is not advocating for that, those are actually fairly fringe beliefs. They were literally in Biden's platform. If Biden didn't stand for "most of the party" IDK what to tell you. > 2. Our fellow capitalistic allies in the west have all of that. Sort of - but they are also significantly poorer on an individual basis, and the US beats them on important quality-of-life measures (living space, degree attainment, etc.) Many of them have private healthcare systems and require students to pay for college. > 3. The closest things the dems tried to universal healthcare was the ACA, and despite being obvious legislation, was fought tooth and nail. You had droves of people legitimately arguing that insurers SHOULD be able to drop you for pre-existing conditions. That's how unbelievably fucking propagandized our population is. We're advocating against ourselves every day. Democrats are not a right-wing party because Trump or "swing voters" exist.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      > They were literally in Biden's platform Uh, no. Universal healthcare and free college were not in the platform. Expanding the ACA and programs like Medicaid is not universal healthcare. There are almost zero politicians currently advocating we completely abolish private insurers. In addition, loan forgiveness is also not free college. > Sort of - but they are also significantly poorer on an individual basis, and the US beats them on important quality-of-life measures And the US also loses on many important quality-of-life measurements. For example, we pay significantly more per person for healthcare while simultaneously having significantly worse healthcare outcomes. Gee, I wonder why? > Democrats are not a right-wing party because Trump or "swing voters" exist. My point more so was that the ACA was incredibly reasonable and obvious and still shocking unpopular. Even among the democrats, there were some at the time claiming it went too far. To this day, the ACA is still a common punching bag for a variety of politicians and constituents. Ultimately, the democrats are trying to win over moderate and on-the-fence voters. That means they're trying to be slightly more left of the republican party, but not by much. When the republican party is far-right, as it currently is, we then have to ask ourselves: where do we land if we're trying to be slightly left of that? It's not socialism, I'll tell you that.

kristopolous 1y ago

were the banks nationalized? All capital over 1 million seized and redistributed? Private property collectivized? Abandoned properties commandeered for the homeless by the state? I must have missed it. What's "communism" now? The public park? A library? What's the current communist thing that makes you couch faint?

anonfordays 1y ago
were the death camps created? all minorities sized and placed into camps? all members of society involved in the war effort? expansionist wars being started? I must have missed it. What's "fascism" now? Enforcing borders? Deporting illegal immigrants? What's the current fascist thing that makes you couch faint?
- kristopolous 1y ago
  I never called it fascism. But doing things like tackling senators for asking questions in a public hearing and snatching children up off the street to send them off to forever jail doesn't look great. I'm sure you'll defend it though, this guy has an R next to his name and you're on team R! (I'm not on team D btw and never was so you can drop that pretext right now)
  - anonfordays 1y ago
    I never called it marxism. But doing things like attempting to subvert democracy by banning your opponent from running and groomimg and mutilating children doesn't look great. I'm sure you'll defend it though, this guy has an D next to his name and you're on team D! (I'm not on team R btw and never was so you can drop that pretext right now)