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I’m open to arguments that tariffs can be effective, but their advocates rarely seem open to the argument that the way they’re implemented matters. To put it k

by fny 1y ago

I’m open to arguments that tariffs can be effective, but their advocates rarely seem open to the argument that the way they’re implemented matters. To put it kindly a lot them are chaos apologists.

netbioserror 1y ago
If we're putting words in peoples' mouths, are the opponents of chaos apologists "wealth-class parasitism apologists"? Because the benefits of a goods-in debt-out trade arrangement have skewed the prosperity curve in one clear direction.
- fny 1y ago
  A policy, however good an idea, must be implemented properly for lasting success. “Wealth-class parasites” as you call them did that for decades under the guise of stability. Why are none of the new protectionist policies implemented with a modicum of stability? Why must everything be done with flip-flipping gusto? Why do we have to become the laughing stock of the world? For some reason, every sensible person arguing for protectionism (e.g. Oren Cass) at no point argues that how it’s being implemented is detrimental to the cause. Do you really think tarrifs or any other policy experiments will survive if congress flips? The implementation of these ideas is a farce that will only encourage their elimination. This is not how policy persists for decades.
  - netbioserror 1y ago
    Why stability? If the stable state is not working, flip it. The stable order is facing popular resistance for a reason. Everyone who benefited from the stable state will feel pain and complain, and they'll correct their strategic stances for the newer unstable order: Onshored supply chains, better inventories than just-in-time, less reliance on inflation assets and more on production assets. Even those feeling the pain can see why, but the only ones blind to it are those ideologically staked to the old order, which was not working. Those people don't deserve to be stakeholders anymore, and if they're knocked off their perches, all the better. Renewal will happen. If it won't persist because democracy will flip it around schizophrenically, then you're just speaking ill of democracy at that point. Can't have that.
    - cycrutchfield 1y ago
      And now we have circled back to the chaos apologists.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - netbioserror 1y ago
        Yes. And you profusely apologized for wealth-class parasitism by way of stability for stability's sake, which is a core heterodox criticism of the previous order.
    - viraptor 1y ago
      > Why stability? If the stable state is not working, flip it. Because this is a weird talk where only extremes are talked about, that is popular when you have only two established parties and no system that enables more nuanced ideas. > and they'll correct their strategic stances for the newer unstable order: Onshored supply chains, In a decade or so... maybe. But why touch that stable state? Maybe lets bring back slavery? Or how about mandatory service and some land invasion? Or split out the states as independent countries? What else would you like to flip to check if it maybe works better, since stable state is not great?
      - netbioserror 1y ago
        >But why touch that stable state? Because it's not working for a majority of people? In a democracy, those are the rules.
        viraptor 1y ago
        The questions was why touch that stable state specifically. As in, why random tariffs, if you're up for flipping random switches with no good plan anyway. (My guess - it made some people lots of money. Not in a way that would make majority happy.)
    - 1y ago
- biophysboy 1y ago
  You can have a parasitic wealth class with a goods out trade arrangement. This is China’s situation
  - Yeul 1y ago
    There's nothing wrong with a parasitic wealth class. They have been running the Netherlands against all adversaries quite successfully for 500 years. You just need to tax them.
    - paulryanrogers 1y ago
      Being raised Republican, you are taught from elementary age that taxes are morally evil. They should only be imposed as necessary and as a disincentive against evil behavior. Also the government is incompetent, bloated, and also evil. The only truly good government is god and his appointed ~grifters~ [messengers]. I wish I was joking. That's what I was taught at home for like 30y.
magicalhippo 1y ago
They seem to be quite effective here in Norway. We have very high rates on imported food that competes with local production. The goal is to ensure we can be fairly self-sufficient when it comes to food. So far it seems to be doing a good job at keeping cheap EU-made food out of our grocery stores. Of course implementation matters a lot. We have no farmers growing corn in Norway, so we don't have any tariffs on corn. We do have farmers growing apples, but there's no harvesting those during our snowy winters so our tariffs on apples are just active when local apples are in season. We do produce beef all year, but not always enough so they hand out limited quotas allowing for massive reduction in duties to compensate and meet demand.
- atwrk 1y ago
  And I think the most important part: Tariffs are only a part of a larger system of a comprehensive agricultural policy in Norway, covering region-specific subsidies, research, agro-tourism and sustainbility. The country doesn't just make food more expensive at the border.
- atq2119 1y ago
  > We do have farmers growing apples, but there's no harvesting those during our snowy winters so our tariffs on apples are just active when local apples are in season I'm curious: apples are fairly easy to store in bulk. That's a large part of why we have them year round. So what's stopping someone from importing apples outside the season and then sorting them to circumvent those tariffs?
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    Nothing, AFAIK. And we do see imported apples year round here[1], many which are not stored but imported directly with duties paid. Though a lot of local apples goes to production of other goods. For example various apple juices made from local apples have become popular, especially as an alternative to wine. The price of a 1L bottle of quality, loc apple juice can be the same as a 0.7L bottle of Riesling wine, around $7. And you need a lot of apples to make juice. [1]: https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/provosert-av-kiwi-rema-og-extra-det-er-rein-cash/s/5-95-1338486 https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/provosert-av-kiwi-rema-og-...
intermerda 1y ago
> Hillsdale College is a member of the advisory board of Project 2025, a collection of conservative and right-wing policy proposals from The Heritage Foundation to reshape the United States federal government and consolidate executive power since Trump won the 2024 presidential election.
- jasonwatkinspdx 1y ago
  It's a conservative christian baptist university. One notable alumni: Erik Prince.

by fny 1y ago

netbioserror 1y ago

If we're putting words in peoples' mouths, are the opponents of chaos apologists "wealth-class parasitism apologists"? Because the benefits of a goods-in debt-out trade arrangement have skewed the prosperity curve in one clear direction.

fny 1y ago
A policy, however good an idea, must be implemented properly for lasting success. “Wealth-class parasites” as you call them did that for decades under the guise of stability. Why are none of the new protectionist policies implemented with a modicum of stability? Why must everything be done with flip-flipping gusto? Why do we have to become the laughing stock of the world? For some reason, every sensible person arguing for protectionism (e.g. Oren Cass) at no point argues that how it’s being implemented is detrimental to the cause. Do you really think tarrifs or any other policy experiments will survive if congress flips? The implementation of these ideas is a farce that will only encourage their elimination. This is not how policy persists for decades.
- netbioserror 1y ago
  Why stability? If the stable state is not working, flip it. The stable order is facing popular resistance for a reason. Everyone who benefited from the stable state will feel pain and complain, and they'll correct their strategic stances for the newer unstable order: Onshored supply chains, better inventories than just-in-time, less reliance on inflation assets and more on production assets. Even those feeling the pain can see why, but the only ones blind to it are those ideologically staked to the old order, which was not working. Those people don't deserve to be stakeholders anymore, and if they're knocked off their perches, all the better. Renewal will happen. If it won't persist because democracy will flip it around schizophrenically, then you're just speaking ill of democracy at that point. Can't have that.
  - cycrutchfield 1y ago
    And now we have circled back to the chaos apologists.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - netbioserror 1y ago
      Yes. And you profusely apologized for wealth-class parasitism by way of stability for stability's sake, which is a core heterodox criticism of the previous order.
  - viraptor 1y ago
    > Why stability? If the stable state is not working, flip it. Because this is a weird talk where only extremes are talked about, that is popular when you have only two established parties and no system that enables more nuanced ideas. > and they'll correct their strategic stances for the newer unstable order: Onshored supply chains, In a decade or so... maybe. But why touch that stable state? Maybe lets bring back slavery? Or how about mandatory service and some land invasion? Or split out the states as independent countries? What else would you like to flip to check if it maybe works better, since stable state is not great?
    - netbioserror 1y ago
      >But why touch that stable state? Because it's not working for a majority of people? In a democracy, those are the rules.
      - viraptor 1y ago
        The questions was why touch that stable state specifically. As in, why random tariffs, if you're up for flipping random switches with no good plan anyway. (My guess - it made some people lots of money. Not in a way that would make majority happy.)
  - 1y ago
biophysboy 1y ago
You can have a parasitic wealth class with a goods out trade arrangement. This is China’s situation
- Yeul 1y ago
  There's nothing wrong with a parasitic wealth class. They have been running the Netherlands against all adversaries quite successfully for 500 years. You just need to tax them.
  - paulryanrogers 1y ago
    Being raised Republican, you are taught from elementary age that taxes are morally evil. They should only be imposed as necessary and as a disincentive against evil behavior. Also the government is incompetent, bloated, and also evil. The only truly good government is god and his appointed ~grifters~ [messengers]. I wish I was joking. That's what I was taught at home for like 30y.

magicalhippo 1y ago

They seem to be quite effective here in Norway. We have very high rates on imported food that competes with local production. The goal is to ensure we can be fairly self-sufficient when it comes to food. So far it seems to be doing a good job at keeping cheap EU-made food out of our grocery stores. Of course implementation matters a lot. We have no farmers growing corn in Norway, so we don't have any tariffs on corn. We do have farmers growing apples, but there's no harvesting those during our snowy winters so our tariffs on apples are just active when local apples are in season. We do produce beef all year, but not always enough so they hand out limited quotas allowing for massive reduction in duties to compensate and meet demand.

atwrk 1y ago
And I think the most important part: Tariffs are only a part of a larger system of a comprehensive agricultural policy in Norway, covering region-specific subsidies, research, agro-tourism and sustainbility. The country doesn't just make food more expensive at the border.
atq2119 1y ago
> We do have farmers growing apples, but there's no harvesting those during our snowy winters so our tariffs on apples are just active when local apples are in season I'm curious: apples are fairly easy to store in bulk. That's a large part of why we have them year round. So what's stopping someone from importing apples outside the season and then sorting them to circumvent those tariffs?
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  Nothing, AFAIK. And we do see imported apples year round here[1], many which are not stored but imported directly with duties paid. Though a lot of local apples goes to production of other goods. For example various apple juices made from local apples have become popular, especially as an alternative to wine. The price of a 1L bottle of quality, loc apple juice can be the same as a 0.7L bottle of Riesling wine, around $7. And you need a lot of apples to make juice. [1]: https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/provosert-av-kiwi-rema-og-extra-det-er-rein-cash/s/5-95-1338486 https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/provosert-av-kiwi-rema-og-...

intermerda 1y ago

> Hillsdale College is a member of the advisory board of Project 2025, a collection of conservative and right-wing policy proposals from The Heritage Foundation to reshape the United States federal government and consolidate executive power since Trump won the 2024 presidential election.

jasonwatkinspdx 1y ago
It's a conservative christian baptist university. One notable alumni: Erik Prince.