5 ms·

Someone I'm "friends" with, recently confessed to me that they very much enjoy watching me fail. I was genuinely surprised because I love watching people win, b

by neom 1y ago

Someone I'm "friends" with, recently confessed to me that they very much enjoy watching me fail. I was genuinely surprised because I love watching people win, but I dug into it a bit and apparently it's very common, people really do love to see other people have setbacks, but the research I read seemed to indicate it was more prevalent in friendships, people seem fine with other people getting a head if they don't know them personally. Apparently it's also considerably more common than not for friends to want their friends to fail, or at least take pleasure in their failures. This was all news to me till about a week or so ago, and I'm old. That research actually lead me to this, that I learned is apparently also news to me[1] - "The researchers found that boredom's effects on sadism were mediated by people's desire for excitement and novelty-seeking - essentially, sadistic behavior served as a way to escape the aversive state of boredom." - I sense somehow these two things are somewhat linked. Some reading: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/43119265_Envy_and_Schadenfreude https://www.researchgate.net/publication/43119265_Envy_and_S... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evaluation_maintenance_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evaluation_maintenance_th... https://www.scribd.com/document/796080571/Document-2 https://www.scribd.com/document/796080571/Document-2 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44068463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44068463

e40 1y ago
I’m curious about how this came out and what the fallout was. If you feel like sharing.
- neom 1y ago
  I'm going through a really really difficult time right now, 3 major areas of my life have broken down simultaneously over the past five months. I was ranting to this guy I've known for years about it (who is very successful but was once jr to me at work) - I would have called him a "good friend" - he was drunk and giggled out something along the lines of "makes me feel strong" - I reacted as you would expect "uh.. really?". We got into a bit, and talked it out (he basically explained it was normal, hence I then went to research if that is true or not), I can see where it sits in his personality now, and I don't think he and I will be friends anymore.
  - jpmoral 1y ago
    > he basically explained it was normal I think this is just him trying to justify it.
  - mierz00 1y ago
    I refuse to believe this is normal and I have happily cut people out of my life for this. The most painful moment was when I had a close friend almost enjoy the fact my wife had a miscarriage. It was completely insensitive and made me realise that I have no interest in being friends with someone who is willing to compete on something so ridiculous.
    - neom 1y ago
      I feel like I took a wrong turn somewhere such that I'm learning all this in my midlife. I genuinely believed the only place for "ruthless competition" was in sports and business, and in theory you know what you're signing up for. The past couple of years have been very eye opening to me, to learn people take such pleasure in such miserable things. (I also didn't know about this till recently: https://www.quora.com/What-are-fair-weather-friends https://www.quora.com/What-are-fair-weather-friends)
      - borski 1y ago
        Yes. I, too, learned this the painful way. I had many friends, or so I thought. Then I got cut out of a volleyball friend group because I was too “intense” (aka talked about things that weren’t the weather) for them. Okay. That hurt a lot. Lots of thinking later, and I can now tell the difference between acquaintances and friends. There’s a simple test: acquaintances will be there when you want them to; friends will be there when you don’t want them to, but need them to anyway. An acquaintance would never do that.
      - dwaltrip 1y ago
        There are a lot of hurting people out there, and often times people will take their pain out on others, even if they don't mean to. Learning to disengage or set firm boundaries in situations where that is happening is one of the most powerful and healthy things one can do.
taylorius 1y ago
It's interesting - had they acted this schadenfreude out at all? Or did this confession come completely out of the blue. From what you said, it is the latter - and if so, should this person be judged for this unappealing inner thought, if they take pains not to let that thought influence their behaviour or actions?
- neom 1y ago
  I have thought about this a lot over the past few weeks. And I think I should stop thinking about it because it's becoming unhealthy, because I've analyzed our whole relationship back years and gotten into too much speculation in my head.
  - cootsnuck 1y ago
    It sounds like he has a very "zero-sum" type of mindset and views most people around him as potential competition instead of potential collaborators. Scarcity mindsets taken to extremes make people focus only on what they can lose. If I'm being charitable, maybe your friend has been struggling with things behind the scenes? But honestly it sounds more like a personality thing. And all of that being said, none of us are perfect. I would hope your friend has at least some redeeming qualities, something you enjoy about him. Otherwise, it sounds like, at least lately, your friendship with him has been taking energy and peace from you and giving you...what? (And I say that not to mean friendships are only about "gaining" something, but they are meant to be mutually supportive with some ebbs and flows.)
    - neom 1y ago
      We used to enjoy drinking together, but now I'm sober, we don't do that anymore. I suspect that was the thing we had in common, we loved getting smashed together... :\
      - Sammi 1y ago
        Sound like you're capable of reflecting and growing, which is awesome. You don't need to be hard on yourself or your friend. You might just be becoming mindful that you need other friendships that have other qualities to them, than the friendships you've had in the past had. This is just growth. Also making new friends is super fun. It's a bit challenging to "put yourself out there" and all that, but all of the best things in life are hard. I really like cheering for my friends, and lots of other people do too. You can find these people now that you know what you're looking for. Also I've never had much luck with work friends. Work seems to get in the way. These days board games are my best strategy for maintaining friendships. You need some sort of "third place" for maintaining good friendships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
Fnoord 1y ago
I wonder how this applies to the army. In the army, the people around you in the same situation as you become your mates, and seeing them suffer or die has a big effect on soldiers. I'd say spending time together forms / ends up in bonding, and those friends aren't friends (although the English-American definition is more like 'peers' anyway); they're former friends. People you used to spend time with. If it comes to school and work, there's competition. Lots of it. In the army, not so much.
- waonderer 1y ago
  In the army, competitions are not as much of an issue because the goal is not to make more money or mere promotion, but to serve the country. "Dying in the act of war" is not frowned upon but celebrated as a badge. Opposite to contrary belief, higher rank individuals (except the topmost levels) are at the front line leading the pack. Army personnel have families, but they kill others who also have families — this is not normal for most people. They get desensitised after practice and war in difficult terrains. I was told by an army lad, his father had instructions to always move forward. If you turn, your own men can shoot you, mistaking you for an enemy.
- jader201 1y ago
  I think this is basic competition. For example, in board games, there are several types: - Competitive games: every person for themselves; there’s one winner, everyone else loses - Co-op games: every human vs. “the game”, often in the form of AI opponents, or environmental conditions; everyone wins or everyone loses - Team games: X vs. Y players (and sometimes more than two teams); one team wins, everyone else loses I feel like work is meant to be a co-op game, but just like co-op games, even though you’re supposed to be on the same team, you often still want to feel like “the best”. Not to the point of bringing the whole team down, but to the point you can secretly feel like you carried the team. In some hostile work environments, it can actually turn into a team game (inter-departmental competition), or even a competitive game (intra-departmental competition). I’ve been in all of these types of companies, and the co-op ones are obviously the best, especially the ones that care more about the elevation of the team over individual success. In the military, it’s very much a team game. You are clearly on the same team, and if you don’t cooperate with your team, you will (likely) lose. Obviously, with military — particularly in war — there can be actual life and death at stake, which elevates this to an extreme level.

by neom 1y ago

e40 1y ago

I’m curious about how this came out and what the fallout was. If you feel like sharing.

neom 1y ago
I'm going through a really really difficult time right now, 3 major areas of my life have broken down simultaneously over the past five months. I was ranting to this guy I've known for years about it (who is very successful but was once jr to me at work) - I would have called him a "good friend" - he was drunk and giggled out something along the lines of "makes me feel strong" - I reacted as you would expect "uh.. really?". We got into a bit, and talked it out (he basically explained it was normal, hence I then went to research if that is true or not), I can see where it sits in his personality now, and I don't think he and I will be friends anymore.
- jpmoral 1y ago
  > he basically explained it was normal I think this is just him trying to justify it.
- mierz00 1y ago
  I refuse to believe this is normal and I have happily cut people out of my life for this. The most painful moment was when I had a close friend almost enjoy the fact my wife had a miscarriage. It was completely insensitive and made me realise that I have no interest in being friends with someone who is willing to compete on something so ridiculous.
  - neom 1y ago
    I feel like I took a wrong turn somewhere such that I'm learning all this in my midlife. I genuinely believed the only place for "ruthless competition" was in sports and business, and in theory you know what you're signing up for. The past couple of years have been very eye opening to me, to learn people take such pleasure in such miserable things. (I also didn't know about this till recently: https://www.quora.com/What-are-fair-weather-friends https://www.quora.com/What-are-fair-weather-friends)
    - borski 1y ago
      Yes. I, too, learned this the painful way. I had many friends, or so I thought. Then I got cut out of a volleyball friend group because I was too “intense” (aka talked about things that weren’t the weather) for them. Okay. That hurt a lot. Lots of thinking later, and I can now tell the difference between acquaintances and friends. There’s a simple test: acquaintances will be there when you want them to; friends will be there when you don’t want them to, but need them to anyway. An acquaintance would never do that.
    - dwaltrip 1y ago
      There are a lot of hurting people out there, and often times people will take their pain out on others, even if they don't mean to. Learning to disengage or set firm boundaries in situations where that is happening is one of the most powerful and healthy things one can do.

taylorius 1y ago

It's interesting - had they acted this schadenfreude out at all? Or did this confession come completely out of the blue. From what you said, it is the latter - and if so, should this person be judged for this unappealing inner thought, if they take pains not to let that thought influence their behaviour or actions?

neom 1y ago
I have thought about this a lot over the past few weeks. And I think I should stop thinking about it because it's becoming unhealthy, because I've analyzed our whole relationship back years and gotten into too much speculation in my head.
- cootsnuck 1y ago
  It sounds like he has a very "zero-sum" type of mindset and views most people around him as potential competition instead of potential collaborators. Scarcity mindsets taken to extremes make people focus only on what they can lose. If I'm being charitable, maybe your friend has been struggling with things behind the scenes? But honestly it sounds more like a personality thing. And all of that being said, none of us are perfect. I would hope your friend has at least some redeeming qualities, something you enjoy about him. Otherwise, it sounds like, at least lately, your friendship with him has been taking energy and peace from you and giving you...what? (And I say that not to mean friendships are only about "gaining" something, but they are meant to be mutually supportive with some ebbs and flows.)
  - neom 1y ago
    We used to enjoy drinking together, but now I'm sober, we don't do that anymore. I suspect that was the thing we had in common, we loved getting smashed together... :\
    - Sammi 1y ago
      Sound like you're capable of reflecting and growing, which is awesome. You don't need to be hard on yourself or your friend. You might just be becoming mindful that you need other friendships that have other qualities to them, than the friendships you've had in the past had. This is just growth. Also making new friends is super fun. It's a bit challenging to "put yourself out there" and all that, but all of the best things in life are hard. I really like cheering for my friends, and lots of other people do too. You can find these people now that you know what you're looking for. Also I've never had much luck with work friends. Work seems to get in the way. These days board games are my best strategy for maintaining friendships. You need some sort of "third place" for maintaining good friendships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Fnoord 1y ago

I wonder how this applies to the army. In the army, the people around you in the same situation as you become your mates, and seeing them suffer or die has a big effect on soldiers. I'd say spending time together forms / ends up in bonding, and those friends aren't friends (although the English-American definition is more like 'peers' anyway); they're former friends. People you used to spend time with. If it comes to school and work, there's competition. Lots of it. In the army, not so much.

waonderer 1y ago
In the army, competitions are not as much of an issue because the goal is not to make more money or mere promotion, but to serve the country. "Dying in the act of war" is not frowned upon but celebrated as a badge. Opposite to contrary belief, higher rank individuals (except the topmost levels) are at the front line leading the pack. Army personnel have families, but they kill others who also have families — this is not normal for most people. They get desensitised after practice and war in difficult terrains. I was told by an army lad, his father had instructions to always move forward. If you turn, your own men can shoot you, mistaking you for an enemy.
jader201 1y ago
I think this is basic competition. For example, in board games, there are several types: - Competitive games: every person for themselves; there’s one winner, everyone else loses - Co-op games: every human vs. “the game”, often in the form of AI opponents, or environmental conditions; everyone wins or everyone loses - Team games: X vs. Y players (and sometimes more than two teams); one team wins, everyone else loses I feel like work is meant to be a co-op game, but just like co-op games, even though you’re supposed to be on the same team, you often still want to feel like “the best”. Not to the point of bringing the whole team down, but to the point you can secretly feel like you carried the team. In some hostile work environments, it can actually turn into a team game (inter-departmental competition), or even a competitive game (intra-departmental competition). I’ve been in all of these types of companies, and the co-op ones are obviously the best, especially the ones that care more about the elevation of the team over individual success. In the military, it’s very much a team game. You are clearly on the same team, and if you don’t cooperate with your team, you will (likely) lose. Obviously, with military — particularly in war — there can be actual life and death at stake, which elevates this to an extreme level.