4 ms·

> any American could live an earlier iteration of the American Dream If (and only if) you aren't socially different from the communities you'd be moving to. Be

> any American could live an earlier iteration of the American Dream If (and only if) you aren't socially different from the communities you'd be moving to. Being gay or trans, for instance, might mark you out as a target in a lot of the places where you could live this cheaply. Plenty of race, religions, or political beliefs that would make it untenable. It's hard to claim that any American can achieve this.

dsadfjasdf 1y ago
[flagged]
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  Having lived in a small town in the South East, it's true. Even being white and male may not be enough. You have to be able bodied, not too ugly, not too short, not too nerdy, the correct religion and denomination for the area. Unless you want to live like a hermet.
- energywut 1y ago
  Are you asking for data on whether intolerance ore pejudice _exists_ in small towns in the US? Well, I would have assumed that was well understood, but you know what? Here's some data that shows that rural communities do, in fact, have measurably higher prejudice against others (In this specific case, hispanic immigrants): https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1409896/FULLTEXT01.pdf https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1409896/FULLTEXT... And here's a study demonstrating that outgroup identity, particularly in rural communities, can lead to worse outcomes including worse allocations of scarce resources: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-021-09680-3#Sec6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-021-09680-3... If you want more data, there's plenty of research out there.
nkurz 1y ago
Maybe you have more direct experience with this than I do, but I'm not sure I agree. I don't follow the lifestyle the author describes, but I do live in an economically and culturally comparable town in Vermont that's much smaller than Massena. The town is full of gay and lesbian couples, and it really doesn't seem to be an issue. The few racial minorities seem to be well accepted. Religion is a surprisingly small factor. Political beliefs do divide the town, but national politics are actually less divisive than I've experienced in larger places. Trans folk do have it harder, but we seem to judge the few we have as individuals. I'm sure there are other towns where these things are much less true, but I wouldn't automatically assume it couldn't work in Massena for anyone with the right attitude. I think it would come down to the individual.
- energywut 1y ago
  I think Vermont is, in my experience, perhaps more accepting of different identities. I've lived in small towns, and spent plenty of time in small towns. Some have a "don't ask/don't tell" or "live and let live" sense to them. As long as you aren't loud about your identity, you'll be left alone. But plenty of places will absolutely run you out of town for having the wrong religion, race, or sexual preferences.
- riffraff 1y ago
  I experienced something similar and would posit that small communities accommodate diversity more easily, because you get to know the people, it's no longer "the homosexuals" or "the immigrants" or "the jews", it's "John who works at the coffee shop ". Clearly this breaks down at a certain size, and it may still suck for people on the minority side tho.
  - cmptrnerd6 1y ago
    This is not true, in my experience, in rural Indiana. I hear the n word a lot for an area that I have yet to meet a black person. One neighbor was complaining about the California family that moved to town and brought all the drug problems with them, despite our county having been the meth capital of Indiana for years before they moved here. Somehow my first conversation with a friend's mom I met while visiting their rural farm involved how there were no black people in the area. But this is why all anecdotal data should be taken with a grain of salt.
    - throwawaymb 1y ago
      Indiana is known for this though...not every rural area is comparable
- shagmin 1y ago
  Guess it comes down to the individual's attitude either way and what they're willing to tolerate but I wouldn't underestimate the aggressive ignorance you can find out there. Vermont is a short drive from the so-called lesbian capital of the world, one of the few parts of the country where democrats consistently win a majority of rural voters, and is in the most secular corner of the country. It's almost the complete opposite of the rest of rural America.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
xyzzy9563 1y ago
[flagged]
- BriggyDwiggs42 1y ago
  Okay so they should go back in the closet?
- CursedSilicon 1y ago
  "Nobody is going to know you're trans unless [transphobic dogwhistle]" Yeah, great
- fzeroracer 1y ago
  There's a particularly funny anecdote I have in regards to your transphobic dogwhistle. Back when I was living in Austin I was at the airport getting ready to visit my family for a flight. As I went to enter the male restroom, a woman from behind me yelled at me that I was entering the wrong restroom and sneered at me. Do you know what my crime was? Being a cisgender male with long hair. That was all it took for someone to assume I was transgender and then proceed to be an asshole.If you're in a rural like that and you stand out in any way, people will notice. And if you're someone that is trans, it'll be far worse.
  - therealdrag0 1y ago
    We might be giving rural vs urban a bit too much credit. Lots of mean people like this in urban areas too.
tshaddox 1y ago
> It's hard to claim that any American can achieve this. Not only that, but there certainly aren't enough cheap houses in cheap areas like this to meaningfully make a dent in the large number of Americans struggling to afford housing.
FireSquid2006 1y ago
I would argue is that what we need for healing and understanding is more brave trans and gay people in these spaces. It's a lot harder to hate a group when your kind neighbor is one of them. Debate and rational arguments dont actually convince most humans. Kindness without the expectation of anything in return and possibly even hate does.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  > It's a lot harder to hate a group when your kind neighbor is one of them. "He/she is one of the good ones..." is a fairly common turn of phrase.
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  > I would argue is that what we need for healing and understanding is more brave trans and gay people in these spaces. It is right, but - if you were one of them, would you risk your life to maybe bring in some change?
kimfc 1y ago
I mean as a trans woman who lived pretty close to how the article author described their life (rural town, no car, shitty housing, very low income), it's definitely possible to live without too much trouble. In the northeast there is definitely bigotry, but it is very uncommon for anyone to say anything. People keep to themselves, and your biggest issue is social isolation. Though when I lived like that in the south I got called slurs and threatened physically by complete strangers pretty often, so your point stands. I'd imagine its pretty similar for most other minority groups.

dsadfjasdf 1y ago

[flagged]

paulryanrogers 1y ago
Having lived in a small town in the South East, it's true. Even being white and male may not be enough. You have to be able bodied, not too ugly, not too short, not too nerdy, the correct religion and denomination for the area. Unless you want to live like a hermet.
energywut 1y ago
Are you asking for data on whether intolerance ore pejudice _exists_ in small towns in the US? Well, I would have assumed that was well understood, but you know what? Here's some data that shows that rural communities do, in fact, have measurably higher prejudice against others (In this specific case, hispanic immigrants): https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1409896/FULLTEXT01.pdf https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1409896/FULLTEXT... And here's a study demonstrating that outgroup identity, particularly in rural communities, can lead to worse outcomes including worse allocations of scarce resources: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-021-09680-3#Sec6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-021-09680-3... If you want more data, there's plenty of research out there.

nkurz 1y ago

Maybe you have more direct experience with this than I do, but I'm not sure I agree. I don't follow the lifestyle the author describes, but I do live in an economically and culturally comparable town in Vermont that's much smaller than Massena. The town is full of gay and lesbian couples, and it really doesn't seem to be an issue. The few racial minorities seem to be well accepted. Religion is a surprisingly small factor. Political beliefs do divide the town, but national politics are actually less divisive than I've experienced in larger places. Trans folk do have it harder, but we seem to judge the few we have as individuals. I'm sure there are other towns where these things are much less true, but I wouldn't automatically assume it couldn't work in Massena for anyone with the right attitude. I think it would come down to the individual.

energywut 1y ago
I think Vermont is, in my experience, perhaps more accepting of different identities. I've lived in small towns, and spent plenty of time in small towns. Some have a "don't ask/don't tell" or "live and let live" sense to them. As long as you aren't loud about your identity, you'll be left alone. But plenty of places will absolutely run you out of town for having the wrong religion, race, or sexual preferences.
riffraff 1y ago
I experienced something similar and would posit that small communities accommodate diversity more easily, because you get to know the people, it's no longer "the homosexuals" or "the immigrants" or "the jews", it's "John who works at the coffee shop ". Clearly this breaks down at a certain size, and it may still suck for people on the minority side tho.
- cmptrnerd6 1y ago
  This is not true, in my experience, in rural Indiana. I hear the n word a lot for an area that I have yet to meet a black person. One neighbor was complaining about the California family that moved to town and brought all the drug problems with them, despite our county having been the meth capital of Indiana for years before they moved here. Somehow my first conversation with a friend's mom I met while visiting their rural farm involved how there were no black people in the area. But this is why all anecdotal data should be taken with a grain of salt.
  - throwawaymb 1y ago
    Indiana is known for this though...not every rural area is comparable
shagmin 1y ago
Guess it comes down to the individual's attitude either way and what they're willing to tolerate but I wouldn't underestimate the aggressive ignorance you can find out there. Vermont is a short drive from the so-called lesbian capital of the world, one of the few parts of the country where democrats consistently win a majority of rural voters, and is in the most secular corner of the country. It's almost the complete opposite of the rest of rural America.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

xyzzy9563 1y ago

[flagged]

BriggyDwiggs42 1y ago
Okay so they should go back in the closet?
CursedSilicon 1y ago
"Nobody is going to know you're trans unless [transphobic dogwhistle]" Yeah, great
fzeroracer 1y ago
There's a particularly funny anecdote I have in regards to your transphobic dogwhistle. Back when I was living in Austin I was at the airport getting ready to visit my family for a flight. As I went to enter the male restroom, a woman from behind me yelled at me that I was entering the wrong restroom and sneered at me. Do you know what my crime was? Being a cisgender male with long hair. That was all it took for someone to assume I was transgender and then proceed to be an asshole.If you're in a rural like that and you stand out in any way, people will notice. And if you're someone that is trans, it'll be far worse.
- therealdrag0 1y ago
  We might be giving rural vs urban a bit too much credit. Lots of mean people like this in urban areas too.

tshaddox 1y ago

> It's hard to claim that any American can achieve this. Not only that, but there certainly aren't enough cheap houses in cheap areas like this to meaningfully make a dent in the large number of Americans struggling to afford housing.

FireSquid2006 1y ago

I would argue is that what we need for healing and understanding is more brave trans and gay people in these spaces. It's a lot harder to hate a group when your kind neighbor is one of them. Debate and rational arguments dont actually convince most humans. Kindness without the expectation of anything in return and possibly even hate does.

FireBeyond 1y ago
> It's a lot harder to hate a group when your kind neighbor is one of them. "He/she is one of the good ones..." is a fairly common turn of phrase.
StefanBatory 1y ago
> I would argue is that what we need for healing and understanding is more brave trans and gay people in these spaces. It is right, but - if you were one of them, would you risk your life to maybe bring in some change?

kimfc 1y ago

I mean as a trans woman who lived pretty close to how the article author described their life (rural town, no car, shitty housing, very low income), it's definitely possible to live without too much trouble. In the northeast there is definitely bigotry, but it is very uncommon for anyone to say anything. People keep to themselves, and your biggest issue is social isolation. Though when I lived like that in the south I got called slurs and threatened physically by complete strangers pretty often, so your point stands. I'd imagine its pretty similar for most other minority groups.