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It is fascinating to me that there is never a discussion about US states seceding. Well to put that another way, there is a discussion when it's a red state lik

It is fascinating to me that there is never a discussion about US states seceding. Well to put that another way, there is a discussion when it's a red state like Texas that is mad that the federal government wants clean air and good healthcare -- Texas spent Biden's term setting up "consulates" and fanning separation threats -- but why do we never hear serious talk about "blue" states seceding, and the mere notion is consider traitorous and "undivided under god" or something civil war incantions? Comparing the trivial complaints Albertans have relative to the federal government[1], just looking at what is happening in the US right now, where the country is objectively and rapidly becoming a profoundly corrupt, banana-republic level idiocracy, and I cannot fathom how the West Coast, New England, New York and the like want to continue to be dictated to by people like MTG or Mike Lee, or have to watch the news everyday to see what new catastrophe the self-dealing felonious president has announced. I mean, in actual polling, 9% of Canadians want to join the US (the absolute high was 15% of Albertans). 20% of Americans want their state to join Canada. Isn't that Amazing? So, start the process? [1] - Most of Alberta's complaints are nonsensical. The NEP program mentioned elsewhere, for instance, promised a coast to coast pipeline system. Alberta refused it, yet now strangely one of their biggest grievances is that there isn't a coast to coast pipeline system. Keystone XL was't cancelled by Canada, it was by the US which has always been extremely antagonistic to the province, and is rapidly replacing it with North Dakota (a state that produces about 4x the per capita oil value, but whose residents see very little value from the same). The federal government recently dropped $35B for a pipeline because commercially most big oil companies refuse to spend money on Albertan projects, but just want to rile up the low-info rubes into thinking somehow it's actually the federal government's fault. See Petronas cancelling an LNG project because spending billions on a terminal in a world flooded with low price LNG isn't worthwhile...still somehow a grievance about the federal government.

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Henchman21 1y ago
> but why do we never hear serious talk about "blue" states seceding, and the mere notion is consider traitorous and "undivided under god" or something civil war incantions? Because conservatives own the media and push their agenda. Its of no use to them to portray things accurately. For instance, gun violence in red states is significantly worse than in blue, but the media pushes their narrative that simply going to Chicago is taking your life in your own hands.. you’re gonna get shot for sure, better to stay away! Which, coincidentally, means that those folks never investigate the truth of the matter and often they push the narrative!
pvg 1y ago
There is endless talk about US states seceding but this question was settled by what is still the country's deadliest war. There's no meaningful 'process' by which a US state can secede so the talk is limited to talk.
- marcusverus 1y ago
  Will the United States exist for the remainder of human history simply because "there is no handy 'process'" by which states can secede? The idea is silly. If people actually cared about such things, the US would never have come into existence. After all, as of 1776, the question of rebellion was clearly settled by the Treason Act of 1351. There was no meaningful 'process' by which the colonies could secede. And yet the American revolution happened. It happened in the same way that history always happens. Not in strict adherence to some scrap of paper, or in accordance to a process flow chart, but off the cuff. After all, what proportion of successful secession movements in human history have followed a strictly legal process? I can only think of a few, all small nations, all in the last 100 years or so. Bismarck was right (as usual) when he said: > Not through speeches and majority decisions will the great questions of the day be decided... but by iron and blood. When people are determined to secede, they won't be stopped by words. They'll be stopped by "iron and blood", or they'll be on their way. I've heard many Americans express their fear of another civil war, but I have never heard a single one express their support for starting one and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives for the sake of preserving a polity.
  - pvg 1y ago
    Will the United States exist for the remainder of human history simply because "there is no handy 'process'" by which states can secede? The idea is silly. I'm not sure why you're telling me your silly idea, I didn't say that. Canada has had a reasonably recent, nearly successful political secessionist movement and two effectively failed efforts at constitutional reform to address it. Secession is not a settled issue in Canada the way it is in the US which is why it has a different valence in that context.
AlexandrB 1y ago
The NEP also applied price controls on domestic sales of oil, effectively forcing Alberta to sell oil to other provinces at below market rates: > The NEP's Petroleum Gas Revenue Tax (PGRT) instituted a double-taxation mechanism that did not apply to other commodities, such as gold and copper (see "Program details" item (c), below), "to redistribute revenue from the [oil] industry and lessen the cost of oil for Eastern Canada" in an attempt to insulate the Canadian economy from the shock of rising global oil prices[20] (see "Program details" item (a), below). In 1981, Scarfe argued that by keeping domestic oil prices below world market prices, the NEP was essentially mandating provincial generosity and subsidizing all Canadian consumers of fuel, because of Alberta and the other oil-producing provinces (such as Newfoundland, which received funding by the NEP for the Hibernia project).[14]: 8 and > Estimates have placed Alberta's losses between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP.[32][33] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program
SoftTalker 1y ago
> just looking at what is happening in the US right now, where the country is objectively become a profoundly corrupt, banana-republic level idiocracy, Half the population, or perhaps slightly more, doesn't agree with that.
- llm_nerd 1y ago
  By what measure do you come up with that? Nationwide, Trump's approval rating is somewhere around 42-46%. And just to be clear, early in a term presidential approval rating is in a honeymoon period where the public is trying to make the best of the next four years and sees it with rose coloured glasses. Obama had a 65% approval rating. Biden had a 57% approval rating. Both at the same stage in their presidency. On every single issue, the public disagrees with how Trump has acted. From immigration to trade and tariffs to education to health. And he's currently in the "lie about everything and promise the world" stage, but much like his first term that has an expiry date when people realize that he is incredibly stupid and lies with every breath. There will be no trillion dollar windfall from tariffs "paid for by the other country" (though there is the most regressive, largest tax hike in US history), everything is going to get more expensive, and the "Golden age" is going to be a dire descent to a fallen empire. There will be no $5000 DOGE savings cheques or elimination of taxes on tips or overtime, egg prices haven't dropped 95%, gas isn't $1.99, and the Ukraine war keeps going on. He isn't going to eliminate the debt or even the massively exploding deficit with his magical crypto scam shitcoin. But Trump will self-enrich himself and everyone who pays his extortion racket. His trade war grift seems mostly targeted at getting various Trump co projects going, along with fellating his pal Elon's various companies. But regardless, I'm not talking about the US as a whole. No one in Canada wants Kentucky or Texas or Florida joining us, and those people can herald their orange idol however much they want. But on the West Coast Trump has a 30% approval rating. In much of New England and New York he's mid-30s. Again, despite this being the honeymoon period. Yeah, the areas I talked about hugely disagree with this government. So do something about it. Again, red people and states talk about this all the time. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/marjorie-taylor-greene-states-consider-seceding-from-the-union-1234822567/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/marjorie... https://www.newsweek.com/texas-secession-closer-anyone-thinks-1884088 https://www.newsweek.com/texas-secession-closer-anyone-think... If the so-called Blue states don't want to be dragged back a hundred years into this growing anti-science, corrupt idiocracy, start taking the same tact. Somehow it's only incomprehensible when the better states broach it.

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Henchman21 1y ago

> but why do we never hear serious talk about "blue" states seceding, and the mere notion is consider traitorous and "undivided under god" or something civil war incantions? Because conservatives own the media and push their agenda. Its of no use to them to portray things accurately. For instance, gun violence in red states is significantly worse than in blue, but the media pushes their narrative that simply going to Chicago is taking your life in your own hands.. you’re gonna get shot for sure, better to stay away! Which, coincidentally, means that those folks never investigate the truth of the matter and often they push the narrative!

pvg 1y ago

There is endless talk about US states seceding but this question was settled by what is still the country's deadliest war. There's no meaningful 'process' by which a US state can secede so the talk is limited to talk.

marcusverus 1y ago
Will the United States exist for the remainder of human history simply because "there is no handy 'process'" by which states can secede? The idea is silly. If people actually cared about such things, the US would never have come into existence. After all, as of 1776, the question of rebellion was clearly settled by the Treason Act of 1351. There was no meaningful 'process' by which the colonies could secede. And yet the American revolution happened. It happened in the same way that history always happens. Not in strict adherence to some scrap of paper, or in accordance to a process flow chart, but off the cuff. After all, what proportion of successful secession movements in human history have followed a strictly legal process? I can only think of a few, all small nations, all in the last 100 years or so. Bismarck was right (as usual) when he said: > Not through speeches and majority decisions will the great questions of the day be decided... but by iron and blood. When people are determined to secede, they won't be stopped by words. They'll be stopped by "iron and blood", or they'll be on their way. I've heard many Americans express their fear of another civil war, but I have never heard a single one express their support for starting one and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives for the sake of preserving a polity.
- pvg 1y ago
  Will the United States exist for the remainder of human history simply because "there is no handy 'process'" by which states can secede? The idea is silly. I'm not sure why you're telling me your silly idea, I didn't say that. Canada has had a reasonably recent, nearly successful political secessionist movement and two effectively failed efforts at constitutional reform to address it. Secession is not a settled issue in Canada the way it is in the US which is why it has a different valence in that context.

AlexandrB 1y ago

The NEP also applied price controls on domestic sales of oil, effectively forcing Alberta to sell oil to other provinces at below market rates: > The NEP's Petroleum Gas Revenue Tax (PGRT) instituted a double-taxation mechanism that did not apply to other commodities, such as gold and copper (see "Program details" item (c), below), "to redistribute revenue from the [oil] industry and lessen the cost of oil for Eastern Canada" in an attempt to insulate the Canadian economy from the shock of rising global oil prices[20] (see "Program details" item (a), below). In 1981, Scarfe argued that by keeping domestic oil prices below world market prices, the NEP was essentially mandating provincial generosity and subsidizing all Canadian consumers of fuel, because of Alberta and the other oil-producing provinces (such as Newfoundland, which received funding by the NEP for the Hibernia project).[14]: 8 and > Estimates have placed Alberta's losses between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP.[32][33] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program

SoftTalker 1y ago

> just looking at what is happening in the US right now, where the country is objectively become a profoundly corrupt, banana-republic level idiocracy, Half the population, or perhaps slightly more, doesn't agree with that.

llm_nerd 1y ago
By what measure do you come up with that? Nationwide, Trump's approval rating is somewhere around 42-46%. And just to be clear, early in a term presidential approval rating is in a honeymoon period where the public is trying to make the best of the next four years and sees it with rose coloured glasses. Obama had a 65% approval rating. Biden had a 57% approval rating. Both at the same stage in their presidency. On every single issue, the public disagrees with how Trump has acted. From immigration to trade and tariffs to education to health. And he's currently in the "lie about everything and promise the world" stage, but much like his first term that has an expiry date when people realize that he is incredibly stupid and lies with every breath. There will be no trillion dollar windfall from tariffs "paid for by the other country" (though there is the most regressive, largest tax hike in US history), everything is going to get more expensive, and the "Golden age" is going to be a dire descent to a fallen empire. There will be no $5000 DOGE savings cheques or elimination of taxes on tips or overtime, egg prices haven't dropped 95%, gas isn't $1.99, and the Ukraine war keeps going on. He isn't going to eliminate the debt or even the massively exploding deficit with his magical crypto scam shitcoin. But Trump will self-enrich himself and everyone who pays his extortion racket. His trade war grift seems mostly targeted at getting various Trump co projects going, along with fellating his pal Elon's various companies. But regardless, I'm not talking about the US as a whole. No one in Canada wants Kentucky or Texas or Florida joining us, and those people can herald their orange idol however much they want. But on the West Coast Trump has a 30% approval rating. In much of New England and New York he's mid-30s. Again, despite this being the honeymoon period. Yeah, the areas I talked about hugely disagree with this government. So do something about it. Again, red people and states talk about this all the time. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/marjorie-taylor-greene-states-consider-seceding-from-the-union-1234822567/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/marjorie... https://www.newsweek.com/texas-secession-closer-anyone-thinks-1884088 https://www.newsweek.com/texas-secession-closer-anyone-think... If the so-called Blue states don't want to be dragged back a hundred years into this growing anti-science, corrupt idiocracy, start taking the same tact. Somehow it's only incomprehensible when the better states broach it.