6 ms·

Oh woah this looks great. Quite amazing they put the effort into this for Postgres instead of SQL Server. The demand must be a lot higher.

by pier25 1y ago

Wojtkie 1y ago
The copilot integrations look sweet, as does the schema view. The MSSQL extension doesn't have those, but the rest of it looks similar to the Postgres one.
- croblesm 1y ago
  Lead PM for MSSQL extension in VS Code here. I’m glad to share that we have both features (Schema Designer, GitHub Copilot) into the MSSQL extension for VS Code. You can check out this end-to-end demo showcasing those capabilities: https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-copilot-demo https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-copilot-demo As I’ve mentioned in a few other threads, the PostgreSQL team recently forked our MSSQL extension to kick off a fresh implementation for Postgres. It’s built on the same foundation we’re actively improving and evolving for both extensions.
nevi-me 1y ago
I speculate that it's because the MSSQL tools have been maintained as part of Azure Data Studio, and were in better shape. ADS is being sunset, and I was surprised when trying to install the Postgres extension on VS Code to find that it had its last meaningful contribution 6 years ago [0]. It couldn't work on newer VS Code versions. I use ADS with both Postgres and MSSQL, prior to this announcement, I kept using ADS because there was nothing to migrate to. [0] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-postgresql/commits/master/ https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-postgresql/commits/maste...
- hobs 1y ago
  They built the postgres plugin in a way that nobody could usefully contribute to unless they worked at msft - like the rest of ADS the level of control they tried to maintain meant nobody wanted to work on it.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
    That is seemingly true of a bunch of tools. I am using an official Microsoft Python library - the repo is public on GitHub, but all of the CI or other backend integration is behind the Microsoft curtain, so it is impossible for the public to actually participate. The cherry on top is that the team that used to support the tool was impacted, so now nobody can maintain the thing.
    - throwaway2037 1y ago
      I am curious: Which library?
      - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
        The SQL Server driver for Django. Originally maintained by someone from Nebraska, Microsoft then took ownership of the project (now lives under the Microsoft GH organization). The last commit was 11 months ago. Has not supported a current release of Django for over a year now. There are almost certainly security implications for sticking on the now deprecated Django 5.0. The issues are begging for anyone at Microsoft to do something. Several pull requests sitting there with the ostensibly required updates to make it compatible with the latest Django LTS. You can find workarounds, but it is an awful situation. Now the community is probably going to have to re-fork the library back to the public for maintenance. I am clearly not a bean counter, but if Microsoft wants its database to win against the free options, they could do their best to ensure popular libraries can seamlessly connect. https://github.com/microsoft/mssql-django/issues/418#issuecomment-2512671149 https://github.com/microsoft/mssql-django/issues/418#issueco...
        hobs 1y ago
        Microsoft also loves to sideline some author so some PM can say "look at this OSS project we now control!!!!" and then add controls and processes that nobody gets to even know about except for MSFT and then weird, inevitably a few years later its just a disaster area.
- croblesm 1y ago
  You’re right—the old PostgreSQL extension was outdated. The team recently forked our modern MSSQL extension (I’m the Lead PM) to build a new one for PostgreSQL. It’s a fresh start, built on the same foundation we’re actively improving. We’re still working on bringing over some Azure Data Studio features to the VS Code extension, especially around import/export (like flat file and DACPAC). I’d love to hear what else you think is missing. If you’re interested, here’s our open roadmap: https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap
magicalhippo 1y ago
They already have the SQL Server Management Studio[1], which seems to cover similar ground? I'm assuming they might want to move SSMS to VSCode in time, so trying it out by covering new ground, PostgreSQL, makes sense to me. [1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/ssms/sql-server-management-studio-ssms https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/ssms/sql-server-management...
- pier25 1y ago
  But it's only for Windows
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    In my experience, MSSQL shops are far more likely to be using Windows already than PGSQL shops, so that's just yet another reason for why PGSQL was a good first choice for a VSCode plugin IMHO.
- v5o 1y ago
  [dead]
- AdrianB1 1y ago
  No, it has a different purpose; VS Code extension and the former ADS are targeted for development, while SSMS is for server and database administration. I am a heavy user of SSMS and can do everything I ever need there, I don't use the VS Code extension for MS SQL even if I have it installed and I use VS Code quite a lot. This is because I am also acting as a backup and supervisor for our DBA team, so I am involved in DBA work.
  - codeulike 1y ago
    SSMS is also for Development, I've been using it for that for 20 years
    - robertlagrant 1y ago
      Yes, it's good!
shawnz 1y ago
There is already a Microsoft SQL server extension for VS Code and this looks to effectively be a clone of it. After giving this a quick spin, it looks and feels the same as the SQL server extension, with the same menus, dialogs, etc. The SQL server extension I believe is what formed the basis of the now-deprecated Azure Data Studio (which was a VS code fork). See here for the SQL server extension: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-mssql.mssql https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-mssql...
- cerved 1y ago
  Since most databases expose similar schema views it shouldn't be too complicated. Feels like JetBrains has been doing this for a long time
- croblesm 1y ago
  That’s correct—I’m the lead PM for the SQL extension in Visual Studio Code. We’ve been working closely with the PostgreSQL team; in fact, their extension is essentially a fork of ours, as you pointed out correctly. Just to clarify on the Azure Data Studio (ADS) point: the MSSQL extension includes many of the core features from ADS, but our strategy is slightly different and focused on a modern, developer-first experience. Here’s the link to our open roadmap—would love to hear your thoughts: https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
osigurdson 1y ago
SQL server is in "cash cow mode" at this point. Investing more into tooling is unlikely to increase revenues at this stage.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  I can think of several improvements for Transact-SQL, starting with stored procedure packages.
wg0 1y ago
I wish there was something similar for SQLite.
- Sammi 1y ago
  There are several sqlite vs code extensions and this one's my favorite: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=yy0931.vscode-sqlite3-editor https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=yy0931.v...
coliveira 1y ago
MS SQL server is a legacy system. I don't think any business would create a new database using SQL server unless, for some technical reason, they don't have any other option.
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  Legal, compliance, high performance, and familiarity are all valid reasons. (I'm actually not a fan, but less opposed now that it can run on Linux)
- doubleorseven 1y ago
  There is a parallel world, called enterprise. The enterprise people in this world, like enterprise software. They were born to be enterprise oriented. This is fine. Not everyone is like you and it's ok to use a robust product like MSSQL.
- harrall 1y ago
  SQL Server is technically very, very good. But they charge you an arm and a leg for the pleasure, but it can be worthwhile for enterprise.
  - CharlieDigital 1y ago
    I spent the early part of my career in MSSQL and the current part in Pg. MSSQL is extremely, extremely capable as a database engine. But it also costs an arm and a leg. People who haven't used it don't know just how capable it is.
    - AdrianB1 1y ago
      The Express Edition is a SQL database engine with some limitations on CPU count and memory and missing SQL agent. It is free. I installed the version 2017 on some servers 7 years ago and they still run some supplier portal on it, that team was too lazy to even upgrade to newer versions.
    - senderista 1y ago
90s_dev 1y ago
Microsoft seems to be going all in on open source over the past 10-15 years. From a consumer perspective, we're almost all benefiting. From a business perspective, they get unpaid help and community brownie points.
- 90s_dev 1y ago
  Also, given that they recently bought github, they have financial incentive to keep people there, who might upgrade to pro accounts or grow to need enterprise.
- teruakohatu 1y ago
  > going all in on open source over the past 10-15 years. Given that there are many Microsoft closed source extensions for VS Code, that cannot legally be used with the open source Version of VS Code, I would say they are not going all in. Knee deep maybe.
  - ahartmetz 1y ago
    Because of the closed extensions situation, the open source part feels insincere. Sort of like a free plan up to 10 users and then pretty expensive situation. The purpose isn't the free plan, it's just an advertising measure to get people to where you really benefit eventually.
    - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
      It's the contemporary version of the second E [0], if you will. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
    - 90s_dev 1y ago
      You're mixing up ideas. Microsoft isn't "sincere" because it's just a business doing what businesses do, making money. They're not trying to be altruistic or principled. They're just doing business. But I have personally benefited from this deal by having TypeScript and VS Code at my disposal.
pamelafox 1y ago
I'm a developer advocate at Microsoft, and from my perspective, both teams have been putting in a bunch of effort improving their extensions. I participated in usability studies with both the teams behind the SQL Server extension and new PostgreSQL extension, and then once they were ready, I participated in bug bashes. Both teams seem to very much want developers to enjoy their tools, so please do send them feedback on what you need out of the tools. Follow Carlos Robles if you want SQL server extension news: https://www.linkedin.com/in/croblesm/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/croblesm/ Follow Joshua Johnson for PostgreSQL server extension news: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsonjoshuae/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsonjoshuae/
- jiggawatts 1y ago
  The problem customers have with these Shiny New Things that Microsoft keeps trying get us to switch to is that they drop features and entire product suites on the floor, even those that aren't officially deprecated and have no equivalent replacements. It's common to see SSRS, SSIS, SSAS in multidimensional mode, etc... simply forgotten about like they no longer exist. Not to mention that SQL "SDK-style" projects only work properly in VS Code, so Visual Studio users are left out in the cold having to deal with an incomplete, half-baked solution.
  - shawnz 1y ago
    I totally agree and I beg you to consider this feedback if you are reading @pamelafox. The biggest problem with the usability of Microsoft products today is short-sighted thinking. New features, platforms, frameworks etc are launched and then forgotten about just a few years later with no effort to tie into the groundwork of what came before. You might think this is only a problem for old customers who are already accustomed to the old technologies, but that's not true: it burdens new customers too. There's a few reasons for this that I can think of. 1) It's hard for new customers to know what technologies they should be reaching for in what situations when there's so many different choices. 2) It's hard to find the right documentation for the technology you've picked because you have to browse through a ton of out-of-date documentation that wrongly refers to the deprecated technologies and it's not clear what the current recommendations are. 3) The new stuff is often built without consideration for the ways of thinking that the underlying platform was built with. Thus, you end up with weird idiosyncrasies as you move from one technology to another, which make it hard to learn and hard to use. 4) When you replace the old technologies you lose the benefit of community knowledge on platforms like Stack Overflow, you lose the ability to look at existing open-source projects for guidance, etc. You are basically going into uncharted territory where there are no clearly established patterns in the wild. So, even new users coming on to your platform suffer from these deficits. That's not to say I don't appreciate all the work on these new powerful technologies like VS Code and .NET Platform and so on, but I think a more long-sighted vision for these products would go a long way. And it's not just a matter of looking forward, since you never know what's going to happen in the future with a product as organizational priorities change. It's also a matter of looking backwards at what came before, at what groundwork was laid by previous efforts, and how it can be best taken advantage of and re-used for future efforts. That is the biggest missing piece at Microsoft today in my opinion.
globular-toast 1y ago
> Quite amazing they put the effort into this for Postgres instead of SQL Server. Embrace, extend, extinguish.

Oh woah this looks great. Quite amazing they put the effort into this for Postgres instead of SQL Server. The demand must be a lot higher.

by pier25 1y ago

Oh woah this looks great. Quite amazing they put the effort into this for Postgres instead of SQL Server. The demand must be a lot higher.

Wojtkie 1y ago

The copilot integrations look sweet, as does the schema view. The MSSQL extension doesn't have those, but the rest of it looks similar to the Postgres one.

croblesm 1y ago
Lead PM for MSSQL extension in VS Code here. I’m glad to share that we have both features (Schema Designer, GitHub Copilot) into the MSSQL extension for VS Code. You can check out this end-to-end demo showcasing those capabilities: https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-copilot-demo https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-copilot-demo As I’ve mentioned in a few other threads, the PostgreSQL team recently forked our MSSQL extension to kick off a fresh implementation for Postgres. It’s built on the same foundation we’re actively improving and evolving for both extensions.

nevi-me 1y ago

I speculate that it's because the MSSQL tools have been maintained as part of Azure Data Studio, and were in better shape. ADS is being sunset, and I was surprised when trying to install the Postgres extension on VS Code to find that it had its last meaningful contribution 6 years ago [0]. It couldn't work on newer VS Code versions. I use ADS with both Postgres and MSSQL, prior to this announcement, I kept using ADS because there was nothing to migrate to. [0] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-postgresql/commits/master/ https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-postgresql/commits/maste...

hobs 1y ago
They built the postgres plugin in a way that nobody could usefully contribute to unless they worked at msft - like the rest of ADS the level of control they tried to maintain meant nobody wanted to work on it.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
  That is seemingly true of a bunch of tools. I am using an official Microsoft Python library - the repo is public on GitHub, but all of the CI or other backend integration is behind the Microsoft curtain, so it is impossible for the public to actually participate. The cherry on top is that the team that used to support the tool was impacted, so now nobody can maintain the thing.
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    I am curious: Which library?
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
      The SQL Server driver for Django. Originally maintained by someone from Nebraska, Microsoft then took ownership of the project (now lives under the Microsoft GH organization). The last commit was 11 months ago. Has not supported a current release of Django for over a year now. There are almost certainly security implications for sticking on the now deprecated Django 5.0. The issues are begging for anyone at Microsoft to do something. Several pull requests sitting there with the ostensibly required updates to make it compatible with the latest Django LTS. You can find workarounds, but it is an awful situation. Now the community is probably going to have to re-fork the library back to the public for maintenance. I am clearly not a bean counter, but if Microsoft wants its database to win against the free options, they could do their best to ensure popular libraries can seamlessly connect. https://github.com/microsoft/mssql-django/issues/418#issuecomment-2512671149 https://github.com/microsoft/mssql-django/issues/418#issueco...
      - hobs 1y ago
        Microsoft also loves to sideline some author so some PM can say "look at this OSS project we now control!!!!" and then add controls and processes that nobody gets to even know about except for MSFT and then weird, inevitably a few years later its just a disaster area.
croblesm 1y ago
You’re right—the old PostgreSQL extension was outdated. The team recently forked our modern MSSQL extension (I’m the Lead PM) to build a new one for PostgreSQL. It’s a fresh start, built on the same foundation we’re actively improving. We’re still working on bringing over some Azure Data Studio features to the VS Code extension, especially around import/export (like flat file and DACPAC). I’d love to hear what else you think is missing. If you’re interested, here’s our open roadmap: https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap

magicalhippo 1y ago

They already have the SQL Server Management Studio[1], which seems to cover similar ground? I'm assuming they might want to move SSMS to VSCode in time, so trying it out by covering new ground, PostgreSQL, makes sense to me. [1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/ssms/sql-server-management-studio-ssms https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/ssms/sql-server-management...

pier25 1y ago
But it's only for Windows
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  In my experience, MSSQL shops are far more likely to be using Windows already than PGSQL shops, so that's just yet another reason for why PGSQL was a good first choice for a VSCode plugin IMHO.
v5o 1y ago
[dead]
AdrianB1 1y ago
No, it has a different purpose; VS Code extension and the former ADS are targeted for development, while SSMS is for server and database administration. I am a heavy user of SSMS and can do everything I ever need there, I don't use the VS Code extension for MS SQL even if I have it installed and I use VS Code quite a lot. This is because I am also acting as a backup and supervisor for our DBA team, so I am involved in DBA work.
- codeulike 1y ago
  SSMS is also for Development, I've been using it for that for 20 years
  - robertlagrant 1y ago
    Yes, it's good!

shawnz 1y ago

There is already a Microsoft SQL server extension for VS Code and this looks to effectively be a clone of it. After giving this a quick spin, it looks and feels the same as the SQL server extension, with the same menus, dialogs, etc. The SQL server extension I believe is what formed the basis of the now-deprecated Azure Data Studio (which was a VS code fork). See here for the SQL server extension: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-mssql.mssql https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-mssql...

cerved 1y ago
Since most databases expose similar schema views it shouldn't be too complicated. Feels like JetBrains has been doing this for a long time
croblesm 1y ago
That’s correct—I’m the lead PM for the SQL extension in Visual Studio Code. We’ve been working closely with the PostgreSQL team; in fact, their extension is essentially a fork of ours, as you pointed out correctly. Just to clarify on the Azure Data Studio (ADS) point: the MSSQL extension includes many of the core features from ADS, but our strategy is slightly different and focused on a modern, developer-first experience. Here’s the link to our open roadmap—would love to hear your thoughts: https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap https://aka.ms/vscode-mssql-roadmap

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

osigurdson 1y ago

SQL server is in "cash cow mode" at this point. Investing more into tooling is unlikely to increase revenues at this stage.

pjmlp 1y ago
I can think of several improvements for Transact-SQL, starting with stored procedure packages.

wg0 1y ago

I wish there was something similar for SQLite.

Sammi 1y ago
There are several sqlite vs code extensions and this one's my favorite: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=yy0931.vscode-sqlite3-editor https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=yy0931.v...

coliveira 1y ago

MS SQL server is a legacy system. I don't think any business would create a new database using SQL server unless, for some technical reason, they don't have any other option.

paulryanrogers 1y ago
Legal, compliance, high performance, and familiarity are all valid reasons. (I'm actually not a fan, but less opposed now that it can run on Linux)
doubleorseven 1y ago
There is a parallel world, called enterprise. The enterprise people in this world, like enterprise software. They were born to be enterprise oriented. This is fine. Not everyone is like you and it's ok to use a robust product like MSSQL.
harrall 1y ago
SQL Server is technically very, very good. But they charge you an arm and a leg for the pleasure, but it can be worthwhile for enterprise.
- CharlieDigital 1y ago
  I spent the early part of my career in MSSQL and the current part in Pg. MSSQL is extremely, extremely capable as a database engine. But it also costs an arm and a leg. People who haven't used it don't know just how capable it is.
  - AdrianB1 1y ago
    The Express Edition is a SQL database engine with some limitations on CPU count and memory and missing SQL agent. It is free. I installed the version 2017 on some servers 7 years ago and they still run some supplier portal on it, that team was too lazy to even upgrade to newer versions.
  - senderista 1y ago

90s_dev 1y ago

Microsoft seems to be going all in on open source over the past 10-15 years. From a consumer perspective, we're almost all benefiting. From a business perspective, they get unpaid help and community brownie points.

90s_dev 1y ago
Also, given that they recently bought github, they have financial incentive to keep people there, who might upgrade to pro accounts or grow to need enterprise.
teruakohatu 1y ago
> going all in on open source over the past 10-15 years. Given that there are many Microsoft closed source extensions for VS Code, that cannot legally be used with the open source Version of VS Code, I would say they are not going all in. Knee deep maybe.
- ahartmetz 1y ago
  Because of the closed extensions situation, the open source part feels insincere. Sort of like a free plan up to 10 users and then pretty expensive situation. The purpose isn't the free plan, it's just an advertising measure to get people to where you really benefit eventually.
  - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
    It's the contemporary version of the second E [0], if you will. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
  - 90s_dev 1y ago
    You're mixing up ideas. Microsoft isn't "sincere" because it's just a business doing what businesses do, making money. They're not trying to be altruistic or principled. They're just doing business. But I have personally benefited from this deal by having TypeScript and VS Code at my disposal.

pamelafox 1y ago

I'm a developer advocate at Microsoft, and from my perspective, both teams have been putting in a bunch of effort improving their extensions. I participated in usability studies with both the teams behind the SQL Server extension and new PostgreSQL extension, and then once they were ready, I participated in bug bashes. Both teams seem to very much want developers to enjoy their tools, so please do send them feedback on what you need out of the tools. Follow Carlos Robles if you want SQL server extension news: https://www.linkedin.com/in/croblesm/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/croblesm/ Follow Joshua Johnson for PostgreSQL server extension news: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsonjoshuae/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsonjoshuae/

jiggawatts 1y ago
The problem customers have with these Shiny New Things that Microsoft keeps trying get us to switch to is that they drop features and entire product suites on the floor, even those that aren't officially deprecated and have no equivalent replacements. It's common to see SSRS, SSIS, SSAS in multidimensional mode, etc... simply forgotten about like they no longer exist. Not to mention that SQL "SDK-style" projects only work properly in VS Code, so Visual Studio users are left out in the cold having to deal with an incomplete, half-baked solution.
- shawnz 1y ago
  I totally agree and I beg you to consider this feedback if you are reading @pamelafox. The biggest problem with the usability of Microsoft products today is short-sighted thinking. New features, platforms, frameworks etc are launched and then forgotten about just a few years later with no effort to tie into the groundwork of what came before. You might think this is only a problem for old customers who are already accustomed to the old technologies, but that's not true: it burdens new customers too. There's a few reasons for this that I can think of. 1) It's hard for new customers to know what technologies they should be reaching for in what situations when there's so many different choices. 2) It's hard to find the right documentation for the technology you've picked because you have to browse through a ton of out-of-date documentation that wrongly refers to the deprecated technologies and it's not clear what the current recommendations are. 3) The new stuff is often built without consideration for the ways of thinking that the underlying platform was built with. Thus, you end up with weird idiosyncrasies as you move from one technology to another, which make it hard to learn and hard to use. 4) When you replace the old technologies you lose the benefit of community knowledge on platforms like Stack Overflow, you lose the ability to look at existing open-source projects for guidance, etc. You are basically going into uncharted territory where there are no clearly established patterns in the wild. So, even new users coming on to your platform suffer from these deficits. That's not to say I don't appreciate all the work on these new powerful technologies like VS Code and .NET Platform and so on, but I think a more long-sighted vision for these products would go a long way. And it's not just a matter of looking forward, since you never know what's going to happen in the future with a product as organizational priorities change. It's also a matter of looking backwards at what came before, at what groundwork was laid by previous efforts, and how it can be best taken advantage of and re-used for future efforts. That is the biggest missing piece at Microsoft today in my opinion.

globular-toast 1y ago

> Quite amazing they put the effort into this for Postgres instead of SQL Server. Embrace, extend, extinguish.