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We're all interested in this by virtue of discussing it. No, I don't think that's true at all. It's the whole premise of a crowdsourced/curated forum, that the

by pvg 1y ago

We're all interested in this by virtue of discussing it. No, I don't think that's true at all. It's the whole premise of a crowdsourced/curated forum, that there is some 'we' that is not, in fact, interested in 'everything' - hence the curation, the votes, the rules, the moderation, the non-infinite-scrolling front page. It's clear the thing that happened did happen independently of my beliefs about it You should find out how clear that is by asking the people who can clarify it. That's all.

aspenmayer 1y ago
>> We're all interested in this by virtue of discussing it. > No, I don't think that's true at all. It's the whole premise of crowdsourced/curated forum, that there is some 'we' that is not, in fact, interested in 'everything' - hence the curation, the votes, the rules, the moderation, the non-infinite-scrolling front page. Yes, I was speaking inclusively of those people who have affirmatively expressed interest, whether it be via upvoting or commenting. Disagreement about the post or other engagement counts as expressing interest for the purposes of this discussion. We, as in you (pvg) and I (aspenmayer), specifically are interested in this post by dint and by virtue of discussing it, because it hasn't been dismissed out of hand. >> It's clear the thing that happened did happen independently of my beliefs about it > You should find out how clear that is by asking the people who can clarify it. That's all. I am asking the people who can clarify it (HN moderators) on the site they moderate (Hacker News). HN mods are HN users also. If you're not interested in my comments, you aren't obligated to reply if you can't be constructive and curious. I can't speak to your intent, but the effect you are having on me is anything but that. In polite conversation like HN, your intent matters, but the effects of your communication matter, also. It feels to me like you're concern trolling, ostensibly on behalf of HN, but that's not really consistent with the guidelines' admonition to encourage posts that increase in curiosity as they progress. This is not meant as a personal jab at you, as I do think of you positively on this site, and yet, to not mention how I feel you're coming across would be unfair to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(slang)#Concern_troll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(slang)#Concern_troll > [Concern trolls] profess a commitment to social change for ideals of justice, equality, and opportunity, and then abstain from and discourage all effective action for change. They are known by their brand, 'I agree with your ends but not your means'. In the absence of any clear guideline on the protocol for asking HN users (including mods, who are users first) about their experience of using HN, I know of no better venue for my question. Like, just assume that I emailed them also, or instead, and that I'm sharing it after the fact, if it helps you to relate to my post in good faith on the merits any post which is on-topic and within guidelines, like mine, deserves.
- pvg 1y ago
  In the absence of any clear guideline on the protocol 'Send meta questions to the mods' is all over the guidelines and countless mod comments over the years.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    >> In the absence of any clear guideline on the protocol > 'Send meta questions to the mods' is all over the guidelines and countless mod comments over the years. I am sending my meta question to the mods and users via the submit post text box. If I sent an email, it wouldn't work, because then only the mods would get my email. I don't understand if you're intentionally misunderstanding my aims and goals with my post, but I've made every effort to help you understand why I posted instead of emailed, as my goal was to have a conversation with the entire HN community, not just one subsection of it. There was simply no other way to structure my post so that it would satisfy you, I guess. I don't mean to be dismissive, I really don't know what you expect me to do with your replies in this thread. I can only assume you don't like people questioning things around here.
    - pvg 1y ago
      I am sending my meta question to the mods and users via the submit post text box. The site rules and conventions ask you not to do that, very straightforwardly and have for years. It's a trivial thing and you've written walls of text calling me names, making weird assumptions about my motives, etc, etc. It simply isn't true that there is 'an absence of protocol'. Perhaps you were unaware of it. Now you are, and you're right, this is a great place to wrap up.
      - aspenmayer 1y ago
        You saying so doesn't make it so. Your interpretation of the guidelines is as valid as mine, as neither of us are mods currently, right? Which is why I asked for the mods to weigh in publicly in the first place! What names did I call you? You're retreating to vagaries and allusions and baseless claims. I'm not unaware of what I'm doing, and I don't find your comment helpful. You could have emailed the mods yourself if you wanted, and instead you besmirch my honor and call me a liar, and have the gall to say I'm wrong to merely ask to speak in public. The emperor has no clothes.

by pvg 1y ago

aspenmayer 1y ago

>> We're all interested in this by virtue of discussing it. > No, I don't think that's true at all. It's the whole premise of crowdsourced/curated forum, that there is some 'we' that is not, in fact, interested in 'everything' - hence the curation, the votes, the rules, the moderation, the non-infinite-scrolling front page. Yes, I was speaking inclusively of those people who have affirmatively expressed interest, whether it be via upvoting or commenting. Disagreement about the post or other engagement counts as expressing interest for the purposes of this discussion. We, as in you (pvg) and I (aspenmayer), specifically are interested in this post by dint and by virtue of discussing it, because it hasn't been dismissed out of hand. >> It's clear the thing that happened did happen independently of my beliefs about it > You should find out how clear that is by asking the people who can clarify it. That's all. I am asking the people who can clarify it (HN moderators) on the site they moderate (Hacker News). HN mods are HN users also. If you're not interested in my comments, you aren't obligated to reply if you can't be constructive and curious. I can't speak to your intent, but the effect you are having on me is anything but that. In polite conversation like HN, your intent matters, but the effects of your communication matter, also. It feels to me like you're concern trolling, ostensibly on behalf of HN, but that's not really consistent with the guidelines' admonition to encourage posts that increase in curiosity as they progress. This is not meant as a personal jab at you, as I do think of you positively on this site, and yet, to not mention how I feel you're coming across would be unfair to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(slang)#Concern_troll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(slang)#Concern_troll > [Concern trolls] profess a commitment to social change for ideals of justice, equality, and opportunity, and then abstain from and discourage all effective action for change. They are known by their brand, 'I agree with your ends but not your means'. In the absence of any clear guideline on the protocol for asking HN users (including mods, who are users first) about their experience of using HN, I know of no better venue for my question. Like, just assume that I emailed them also, or instead, and that I'm sharing it after the fact, if it helps you to relate to my post in good faith on the merits any post which is on-topic and within guidelines, like mine, deserves.

pvg 1y ago
In the absence of any clear guideline on the protocol 'Send meta questions to the mods' is all over the guidelines and countless mod comments over the years.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  >> In the absence of any clear guideline on the protocol > 'Send meta questions to the mods' is all over the guidelines and countless mod comments over the years. I am sending my meta question to the mods and users via the submit post text box. If I sent an email, it wouldn't work, because then only the mods would get my email. I don't understand if you're intentionally misunderstanding my aims and goals with my post, but I've made every effort to help you understand why I posted instead of emailed, as my goal was to have a conversation with the entire HN community, not just one subsection of it. There was simply no other way to structure my post so that it would satisfy you, I guess. I don't mean to be dismissive, I really don't know what you expect me to do with your replies in this thread. I can only assume you don't like people questioning things around here.
  - pvg 1y ago
    I am sending my meta question to the mods and users via the submit post text box. The site rules and conventions ask you not to do that, very straightforwardly and have for years. It's a trivial thing and you've written walls of text calling me names, making weird assumptions about my motives, etc, etc. It simply isn't true that there is 'an absence of protocol'. Perhaps you were unaware of it. Now you are, and you're right, this is a great place to wrap up.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      You saying so doesn't make it so. Your interpretation of the guidelines is as valid as mine, as neither of us are mods currently, right? Which is why I asked for the mods to weigh in publicly in the first place! What names did I call you? You're retreating to vagaries and allusions and baseless claims. I'm not unaware of what I'm doing, and I don't find your comment helpful. You could have emailed the mods yourself if you wanted, and instead you besmirch my honor and call me a liar, and have the gall to say I'm wrong to merely ask to speak in public. The emperor has no clothes.