4 ms·

> we are far, far away from the massive (hundred of tons) dumps from the previous era Mass of material dumped is not the same as radioactivity or potential har

> we are far, far away from the massive (hundred of tons) dumps from the previous era Mass of material dumped is not the same as radioactivity or potential harm caused. It looks as if "de minimis" is the key phrase in the convention, in Annex 1.3 . However the IAEA defines "de minimis" in terms of effective dose to people (10 microSieverts/year) per [1] page 14. So point still stands, some level of radioactivity being discharged to the sea is deemed acceptable by experts. If it can be shown that radioactive materials will leach out of the containers very slowly, can this "de minimis" still be met. > We may consider opinions of the current generation as reasonable approximations. So we should be able to vote on it? > Nowadays the low-and-ever-lowering-LCOE of renewables more and more threatens the very business model underlying the nuclear industry which finds its foundation in a high load factor. Intermittent generators also suffer from cannibalisation (duck curve and all of that), hence the need for subsidies and/or guaranteed prices. [1] https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/te_244_web.pdf https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/te_244_web.pd...

natmaka 1y ago
> some level of radioactivity being discharged to the sea is deemed acceptable by experts Doses now tolerated are way below those of ancient dumps. This is a classic ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison ) I wrote "we are far, far away from the massive (hundred of tons) dumps from the previous era" to subsume it. Moreover the whole Linear No-Threshold and bioaccumulation of radioisotopes debate is far from settled, therefore some experts judge even low doses too dangerous. > we should be able to vote on it? IMHO yes. At the very least every citizen paying for it or exposed to some risk has a vote. Direct democracy and referendums let any of them take part, and experts have to convince a majority. > need for subsidies and/or guaranteed prices It mainly is an effect of (past and current) massive subsidies granted to other types of energy sources (nuclear, fossil fuels...), the difficult struggle of incoming quickly evolving tech (photovoltaic, wind turbines...) versus amortized plants, and the insufficient amount of energy-storage deployed equipment. All those burdens are (slowly, this is heavy industry stuff) vanishing and it (more and more quickly) becomes perceptible: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...
- chickenbig 1y ago
  > Doses now tolerated are way below those of ancient dumps. Do those old dumps generate high doses? Is there evidence of the high doses generated, and if so why isn't this on the wikipedia page? I'm not able to tell whether the dose from an old dump is higher than that from a fuel fabrication, reprocessing plant or nuclear power station. > therefore some experts judge even low doses too dangerous One wonders how they get to conferences. Also whether they think about the difference between timber framed and brick buildings, or the background radiation when deciding where to move to.
  - natmaka 1y ago
    > Do those old dumps generate high doses? Nobody knows. A new exploration campaign is running (named 'Nodssum' https://www.myscience.org/news/2025/dechets_radioactifs_une_mission_scientifique_part_cartographier_les_futs_immerges_de_l_atlantique-2025-cnrs https://www.myscience.org/news/2025/dechets_radioactifs_une_... ), targeting North-Atlantic zones. > Is there evidence of the high doses generated, and if so why isn't this on the wikipedia page? AFAIK it now is forbidden to dump highly dangerous waste in non-negligible amounts in the ocean not because there was some accident, but because experts judged that it may trigger one. An approach is to advocate the "let's do whatever please until something breaks", another one is to think about potential consequences THEN to decide. > dose from an old dump is higher than that from a fuel fabrication, reprocessing plant or nuclear power station. Those contexts are way more under human-control than an ocean floor. > One wonders how they get to conferences. This is a weird way to describe a real, ancient (and IMHO growing, since Fukushima) controversy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model#Cont... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis#Proposed_mechanism_and_ongoing_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis#Proposed_me...
    - chickenbig 1y ago
      > Nobody knows. A new exploration campaign is running Would have thought a long-term study of these sites would have already been underway, given their apparent potential hazard. Surely Greenpeace would want such a study to back up their perspective (or does the position not require such evidence). Anyhow, disposing of the waste ten+ metres under the sea floor would have been much better. > another one is to think about potential consequences THEN to decide It is not there was an absence of research into this subject. For instance, the work done by Charles D. Hollister ... https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-aug-28-mn-4440-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-aug-28-mn-4440-... & https://www.jstor.org/stable/26057623 https://www.jstor.org/stable/26057623 . > This is a weird way to describe a real, ancient (and IMHO growing, since Fukushima) controversy. You mistake my sense of humour; I was referring to the increased radiation dose from flying to/from conferences.

natmaka 1y ago

> some level of radioactivity being discharged to the sea is deemed acceptable by experts Doses now tolerated are way below those of ancient dumps. This is a classic ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison ) I wrote "we are far, far away from the massive (hundred of tons) dumps from the previous era" to subsume it. Moreover the whole Linear No-Threshold and bioaccumulation of radioisotopes debate is far from settled, therefore some experts judge even low doses too dangerous. > we should be able to vote on it? IMHO yes. At the very least every citizen paying for it or exposed to some risk has a vote. Direct democracy and referendums let any of them take part, and experts have to convince a majority. > need for subsidies and/or guaranteed prices It mainly is an effect of (past and current) massive subsidies granted to other types of energy sources (nuclear, fossil fuels...), the difficult struggle of incoming quickly evolving tech (photovoltaic, wind turbines...) versus amortized plants, and the insufficient amount of energy-storage deployed equipment. All those burdens are (slowly, this is heavy industry stuff) vanishing and it (more and more quickly) becomes perceptible: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...

chickenbig 1y ago
> Doses now tolerated are way below those of ancient dumps. Do those old dumps generate high doses? Is there evidence of the high doses generated, and if so why isn't this on the wikipedia page? I'm not able to tell whether the dose from an old dump is higher than that from a fuel fabrication, reprocessing plant or nuclear power station. > therefore some experts judge even low doses too dangerous One wonders how they get to conferences. Also whether they think about the difference between timber framed and brick buildings, or the background radiation when deciding where to move to.
- natmaka 1y ago
  > Do those old dumps generate high doses? Nobody knows. A new exploration campaign is running (named 'Nodssum' https://www.myscience.org/news/2025/dechets_radioactifs_une_mission_scientifique_part_cartographier_les_futs_immerges_de_l_atlantique-2025-cnrs https://www.myscience.org/news/2025/dechets_radioactifs_une_... ), targeting North-Atlantic zones. > Is there evidence of the high doses generated, and if so why isn't this on the wikipedia page? AFAIK it now is forbidden to dump highly dangerous waste in non-negligible amounts in the ocean not because there was some accident, but because experts judged that it may trigger one. An approach is to advocate the "let's do whatever please until something breaks", another one is to think about potential consequences THEN to decide. > dose from an old dump is higher than that from a fuel fabrication, reprocessing plant or nuclear power station. Those contexts are way more under human-control than an ocean floor. > One wonders how they get to conferences. This is a weird way to describe a real, ancient (and IMHO growing, since Fukushima) controversy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model#Cont... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis#Proposed_mechanism_and_ongoing_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis#Proposed_me...
  - chickenbig 1y ago
    > Nobody knows. A new exploration campaign is running Would have thought a long-term study of these sites would have already been underway, given their apparent potential hazard. Surely Greenpeace would want such a study to back up their perspective (or does the position not require such evidence). Anyhow, disposing of the waste ten+ metres under the sea floor would have been much better. > another one is to think about potential consequences THEN to decide It is not there was an absence of research into this subject. For instance, the work done by Charles D. Hollister ... https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-aug-28-mn-4440-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-aug-28-mn-4440-... & https://www.jstor.org/stable/26057623 https://www.jstor.org/stable/26057623 . > This is a weird way to describe a real, ancient (and IMHO growing, since Fukushima) controversy. You mistake my sense of humour; I was referring to the increased radiation dose from flying to/from conferences.