7 ms·

Harvard doesn't have higher academic standards for foreign students. So I don't think foreign students are any "better or brighter" than their American counterp

by bko 1y ago

Harvard doesn't have higher academic standards for foreign students. So I don't think foreign students are any "better or brighter" than their American counterparts. So if you can find equally qualified American students on the margin shouldn't you do so? I think an American university that benefits greatly from American taxpayers and institutions should primarily benefit American students. If you're picking truly exceptional student, that's one thing. But I don't think that's happening.

croes 1y ago
But foreign students pay foreign money which helps against the deficit. On top of that many students stay in the US afterwards means a brain plus for the US and a loss their home country. These kind of braun drain is a big advantage for the US they know destroy.
- ThunderSizzle 1y ago
  If that was the case, then these funding cuts wouldn't have any effect on Harvard.
  - croes 1y ago
    If your expenses are based on your income and your income includes government money, cuts on these will have an impact. Same is true for income from foreign student tuition fees.
kristopolous 1y ago
They don't have lower standards either. I mean they will now with a candidate pool reduction of 96%... The rest is kinda wild. I guess Ilya Sutskever should leave? Sergey Brin would have never started Google, Jony Ive would be in the UK, Jensen Huang and Nvidia would be hailing from Taipei, Elon Musk would be in Johannesburg, Linus Torvalds would still be in Finland, the Rasmussen brothers would have launched Google maps in the Netherlands, Satya Nadella would be in Hyderabad, the Broadcom CEO would be in Malaysia... You're beheading like 50% of the S&P my friend... Not to mention say, the faculty of engineering at places like MIT https://www.eecs.mit.edu/role/faculty-cs/ https://www.eecs.mit.edu/role/faculty-cs/ To me places like Stanford and Caltech are world class schools that happen to be in the US. Over 90% not being American born is what I'd expect from a globally renown world class institution because that's what the world population looks like. China has many programs to attract top global talent. If you want to fast track the transition from Silicon Valley to Beijing, kicking out the foreigners is an excellent move. Graduate level coursework at Peking is already in English. All these scholars have to do is get on a plane.
- eli_gottlieb 1y ago
  > You're beheading like 50% of the S&P my friend... And that's why we call it MAGA Maoism.
  - nagaiaida 1y ago
    rather than say anything likely unconstructive myself in direct response to this, i would very much like to see you elaborate on your understanding of mao and what value and predictive power you find in this comparison.
    - Snow_Falls 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - kristopolous 1y ago
        I've seen people use the USSR hammer and sickle for the O in GOP. It's from people who think horseshoe theory has legs: that wanting to shut down prisons is the same as wanting to build concentration camps or that the people who want to say nationalize the banks are also the people who want to privatize the post office. It's from centrists being unable to understand this difference
    - eli_gottlieb 1y ago
      Maoism and Trumpism share a certain self-sabotaging ideological fetish for the virtues of rural life that expresses itself politically more in destructive resentment of urbanites and urban institutions than productive development of rural ones.
- andrekandre 1y ago
  > You're beheading like 50% of the S&P my friend... just a guess but i'd assume these decisions are being made on an emotional/ideological basis, not long term viability, but maybe i'm missing something obvious...
jltsiren 1y ago
Academic standards are kind of irrelevant when it comes to Harvard undergraduate admissions. Harvard is a tiny university at the absolute top of the prestige hierarchy. As far as they are concerned, every serious (non-legacy/donor) applicant is a truly exceptional student. At least to the extent it can be determined from the admission materials and a short interview. They could choose randomly from all good enough applicants with no noticeable impact on academic standards. But Harvard is not in the business of educating the most deserving. Instead, they want to educate the ones who will be successful and influential in the future, and to give them the best networking opportunities possible. The standard joke is that if the admissions officer knew that the applicant would become a tenured professor at Harvard, they would reject the applicant for the lack of success. Most Harvard graduates fail to reach that standard, but it's better to choose a likely failure (and an unlikely unicorn) over a certain failure. PhD admissions are another story. At that stage, Harvard starts caring a lot more about academic potential. They don't want to restrict their recruitment to the US, because Americans are only a small fraction of the people with access to good education. Especially because Americans are reluctant to do a PhD due to the low pay effectively mandated by public research funders.
- rayiner 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - pen2l 1y ago
    I understand it's cool to slam Harvard these days but it is nonetheless a behemoth when it comes to research output. https://www.harvard.edu/about/history/nobel-laureates/ https://www.harvard.edu/about/history/nobel-laureates/ https://www.nature.com/nature-index/research-leaders/2024/institution/academic/all/global https://www.nature.com/nature-index/research-leaders/2024/in... https://hms.harvard.edu/about-hms/history-hms/timeline-discovery https://hms.harvard.edu/about-hms/history-hms/timeline-disco... https://www.harvard.edu/in-focus/innovation/ https://www.harvard.edu/in-focus/innovation/ Roughly a third of the 50-something of Harvard's Nobel laureates were immigrants by the way.
    - 1y ago
labster 1y ago
It doesn’t actually matter if the foreign students are better or not: by having a mixed student body, with lots of cultures and backgrounds, students learn more from each other. They learn skills to work with other cultures, and ways of doing things that may be better. Of course, in America’s future of autarky and Shogunate-style isolationism, those skills will no longer have any value, even to the elite. There’s no need to learn about other countries if everything we need is produced here and no one could ever threaten us once America is made great again. (/s maybe?)
- bko 1y ago
  I don't know. A lot of foreign students from Harvard are Chinese. Seems kind of weird that they were found to discriminate against American Asians and then they import foreign Asian students. Goes against the whole we want diversity thing, no?
  - intended 1y ago
    That sentence is breath taking. > A lot of foreign students from Harvard are Chinese. Seems kind of weird that they were found to discriminate against American Asians and then they import foreign Asian students. How do I put this delicately - the Race part is not what is bringing the difference in lived experience.
    - bko 1y ago
      The university defines diversity broadly, encompassing race, ethnicity, gender, socioeconomic background, nationality, sexual orientation, and other aspects of identity. Don't gaslight me and pretend they don't focus a lot on race when figuring out their student body. They report on it and it's a huge distinguishing characteristic when looking at median standardized scores across diff characteristics. There's little difference between socio economic groups, gender, nationality etc. But if you look across just Asian and non Asian students, the scores are dramatically higher with Asians meaning that they have higher standards. Courts found this to be true
chipsrafferty 1y ago
Notwithstanding the unfounded isolationist argument, having international students is valuable to the university and the domestic students. A diversity of life experiences, knowledge, backgrounds, etc. results in better educational outcomes. But you probably wouldn't understand that concept.

by bko 1y ago

croes 1y ago

But foreign students pay foreign money which helps against the deficit. On top of that many students stay in the US afterwards means a brain plus for the US and a loss their home country. These kind of braun drain is a big advantage for the US they know destroy.

ThunderSizzle 1y ago
If that was the case, then these funding cuts wouldn't have any effect on Harvard.
- croes 1y ago
  If your expenses are based on your income and your income includes government money, cuts on these will have an impact. Same is true for income from foreign student tuition fees.

kristopolous 1y ago

They don't have lower standards either. I mean they will now with a candidate pool reduction of 96%... The rest is kinda wild. I guess Ilya Sutskever should leave? Sergey Brin would have never started Google, Jony Ive would be in the UK, Jensen Huang and Nvidia would be hailing from Taipei, Elon Musk would be in Johannesburg, Linus Torvalds would still be in Finland, the Rasmussen brothers would have launched Google maps in the Netherlands, Satya Nadella would be in Hyderabad, the Broadcom CEO would be in Malaysia... You're beheading like 50% of the S&P my friend... Not to mention say, the faculty of engineering at places like MIT https://www.eecs.mit.edu/role/faculty-cs/ https://www.eecs.mit.edu/role/faculty-cs/ To me places like Stanford and Caltech are world class schools that happen to be in the US. Over 90% not being American born is what I'd expect from a globally renown world class institution because that's what the world population looks like. China has many programs to attract top global talent. If you want to fast track the transition from Silicon Valley to Beijing, kicking out the foreigners is an excellent move. Graduate level coursework at Peking is already in English. All these scholars have to do is get on a plane.

eli_gottlieb 1y ago
> You're beheading like 50% of the S&P my friend... And that's why we call it MAGA Maoism.
- nagaiaida 1y ago
  rather than say anything likely unconstructive myself in direct response to this, i would very much like to see you elaborate on your understanding of mao and what value and predictive power you find in this comparison.
  - Snow_Falls 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - kristopolous 1y ago
      I've seen people use the USSR hammer and sickle for the O in GOP. It's from people who think horseshoe theory has legs: that wanting to shut down prisons is the same as wanting to build concentration camps or that the people who want to say nationalize the banks are also the people who want to privatize the post office. It's from centrists being unable to understand this difference
  - eli_gottlieb 1y ago
    Maoism and Trumpism share a certain self-sabotaging ideological fetish for the virtues of rural life that expresses itself politically more in destructive resentment of urbanites and urban institutions than productive development of rural ones.
andrekandre 1y ago
> You're beheading like 50% of the S&P my friend... just a guess but i'd assume these decisions are being made on an emotional/ideological basis, not long term viability, but maybe i'm missing something obvious...

jltsiren 1y ago

Academic standards are kind of irrelevant when it comes to Harvard undergraduate admissions. Harvard is a tiny university at the absolute top of the prestige hierarchy. As far as they are concerned, every serious (non-legacy/donor) applicant is a truly exceptional student. At least to the extent it can be determined from the admission materials and a short interview. They could choose randomly from all good enough applicants with no noticeable impact on academic standards. But Harvard is not in the business of educating the most deserving. Instead, they want to educate the ones who will be successful and influential in the future, and to give them the best networking opportunities possible. The standard joke is that if the admissions officer knew that the applicant would become a tenured professor at Harvard, they would reject the applicant for the lack of success. Most Harvard graduates fail to reach that standard, but it's better to choose a likely failure (and an unlikely unicorn) over a certain failure. PhD admissions are another story. At that stage, Harvard starts caring a lot more about academic potential. They don't want to restrict their recruitment to the US, because Americans are only a small fraction of the people with access to good education. Especially because Americans are reluctant to do a PhD due to the low pay effectively mandated by public research funders.

rayiner 1y ago
[flagged]
- pen2l 1y ago
  I understand it's cool to slam Harvard these days but it is nonetheless a behemoth when it comes to research output. https://www.harvard.edu/about/history/nobel-laureates/ https://www.harvard.edu/about/history/nobel-laureates/ https://www.nature.com/nature-index/research-leaders/2024/institution/academic/all/global https://www.nature.com/nature-index/research-leaders/2024/in... https://hms.harvard.edu/about-hms/history-hms/timeline-discovery https://hms.harvard.edu/about-hms/history-hms/timeline-disco... https://www.harvard.edu/in-focus/innovation/ https://www.harvard.edu/in-focus/innovation/ Roughly a third of the 50-something of Harvard's Nobel laureates were immigrants by the way.
  - 1y ago

labster 1y ago

It doesn’t actually matter if the foreign students are better or not: by having a mixed student body, with lots of cultures and backgrounds, students learn more from each other. They learn skills to work with other cultures, and ways of doing things that may be better. Of course, in America’s future of autarky and Shogunate-style isolationism, those skills will no longer have any value, even to the elite. There’s no need to learn about other countries if everything we need is produced here and no one could ever threaten us once America is made great again. (/s maybe?)

bko 1y ago
I don't know. A lot of foreign students from Harvard are Chinese. Seems kind of weird that they were found to discriminate against American Asians and then they import foreign Asian students. Goes against the whole we want diversity thing, no?
- intended 1y ago
  That sentence is breath taking. > A lot of foreign students from Harvard are Chinese. Seems kind of weird that they were found to discriminate against American Asians and then they import foreign Asian students. How do I put this delicately - the Race part is not what is bringing the difference in lived experience.
  - bko 1y ago
    The university defines diversity broadly, encompassing race, ethnicity, gender, socioeconomic background, nationality, sexual orientation, and other aspects of identity. Don't gaslight me and pretend they don't focus a lot on race when figuring out their student body. They report on it and it's a huge distinguishing characteristic when looking at median standardized scores across diff characteristics. There's little difference between socio economic groups, gender, nationality etc. But if you look across just Asian and non Asian students, the scores are dramatically higher with Asians meaning that they have higher standards. Courts found this to be true

chipsrafferty 1y ago

Notwithstanding the unfounded isolationist argument, having international students is valuable to the university and the domestic students. A diversity of life experiences, knowledge, backgrounds, etc. results in better educational outcomes. But you probably wouldn't understand that concept.