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That is just shockingly cynical. We're facing a situation where a sitting government feels empowered to go to war against an elite university solely over the s

by ajross 1y ago

That is just shockingly cynical. We're facing a situation where a sitting government feels empowered to go to war against an elite university solely over the speech it doesn't like to hear on its campus. And your response is to dismiss it all as a kerfuffle over "bad lobbying" and "inter-elite fratricide"? Really? Surely there are existing institutions of some form or another you'd like to see not made enemies of the state. You don't maybe see a principle at work here beyond your personal dislike of academia?

alephnerd 1y ago
I'm a severely disillusioned alum of a couple of the campus orgs really driving some of this. > Surely there are existing institutions of some form or another you'd like to see not made enemies of the state. You don't maybe see a principle at work here beyond your personal dislike of academia Hold up - I'm massively pro-academic freedom and autonomy. I'm just pointing out that there's a fight happening behind this fight that has been going on in a subset of the Harvard alum community that has snowballed into this fiasco. > That is just shockingly cynical You don't understand unless you actually attended Harvard. It's a very isolating and cliquish experience which incentivizes you to exist within your echo chamber. Even joining god damn clubs on campus required "Comping" (basically the same as rushing in frats) Major reason I spent most of my time at MIT and BU or the grad schools like HKS and HBS instead - middle class schools tend to have less of a stick up their butt. Edit: can't reply to you below, but tl;dr I agree with your callout. I edited my initial comment because as you pointed out it did come off as if I had schachenfreude. > I can say with 100% sincerity that'd I'd feel the same horror if a White House was similarly going after TCU, or Liberty University, or even Yale I agree. I'm just exasperated by this whole fiasco and that's why my post is so angry in tone
- ajross 1y ago
  > Hold up - I'm massively pro-academic freedom and autonomy. Then maybe you'd like to rephrase your upthread comment which seems very comfortable with a clear and obvious attack on academic freedom and autonomy? > You don't understand unless you actually attended Harvard. Class of '96. But really I don't see how that's relevant in the face of the current crisis. I can say with 100% sincerity that'd I'd feel the same horror if a White House was similarly going after TCU, or Liberty University, or even Yale. It's. Awful. And it's not made less so because some of the students are Zionists, or Palestinian Sympathizers, or Vegan, or whatever it is you're upset about.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > Then maybe you'd like to rephrase your upthread comment which seems very comfortable with a clear and obvious attack on academic freedom and autonomy? On it! I agree with you 100% - it's horrid. > But really I don't see how that's relevant in the face of the current crisis There are some interpersonal relations and egos that got mixed into this, along with a very cynical anti-establishment play. It takes a couple bad apples to spoil the batch, and that's what it feels like has happened. I was a Gov secondary during the Obama years so I bumped into a lot of the people who ended up on either side of the political and cultural divide. I feel digging into that helps explain how this has really snowballed. It's been a rolling crisis for a couple years now. > It's. Awful. And it's not made less so because some of the students are Zionists, or Palestinian Sympathizers, or Vegan, or whatever it is you're upset about I agree, but ignoring some of the ego and personal clashes that has caused this crisis means you lose the bigger picture.
bananalychee 1y ago
Fighting antisemitism is clearly not the true motive behind this ideological "war", just as denazification was clearly not the motive for Russia's invasion of Ukraine; it's just a convenient excuse to target institutions such as Harvard that are unwilling to distance themselves from the progressive left.
- JCattheATM 1y ago
  Exactly this. It's nothing but an attempt to punish them for not kissing the ring. If only we had another arm of government able to hold this clearly corrupt behavior to account....
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    There would have been a stronger one if Ruth Bader Ginsburg had retired at a time that supported a 5/4 ideological balance on the Supreme Court. Instead of the hubris to hold onto the job until death and thereby subsequently undo many of the things she spent her life fighting for. Finding a successor and handing over your power is one of the most important responsibilities of the powerful, when they have a say.
    - JCattheATM 1y ago
      Yeah, that was a pretty bad decision, but the bigger issue is still a population that votes based on misinformation and 'alternative facts'. Until that is resolved, if it even can be at this point, then this tribal and sometimes cultish behavior is only going to become more prevalent, in turn doing more damage to the country. Personally, I think we've started on a path to self-destruction that can't be reversed.
      - AceyMan 1y ago
        > Personally, I think we've started on a path to self-destruction that can't be reversed. Do you mean, 'we' as in the US, or 'we,' as in humanity? [either way, I'm not saying you're wrong :( ]

by ajross 1y ago

alephnerd 1y ago

I'm a severely disillusioned alum of a couple of the campus orgs really driving some of this. > Surely there are existing institutions of some form or another you'd like to see not made enemies of the state. You don't maybe see a principle at work here beyond your personal dislike of academia Hold up - I'm massively pro-academic freedom and autonomy. I'm just pointing out that there's a fight happening behind this fight that has been going on in a subset of the Harvard alum community that has snowballed into this fiasco. > That is just shockingly cynical You don't understand unless you actually attended Harvard. It's a very isolating and cliquish experience which incentivizes you to exist within your echo chamber. Even joining god damn clubs on campus required "Comping" (basically the same as rushing in frats) Major reason I spent most of my time at MIT and BU or the grad schools like HKS and HBS instead - middle class schools tend to have less of a stick up their butt. Edit: can't reply to you below, but tl;dr I agree with your callout. I edited my initial comment because as you pointed out it did come off as if I had schachenfreude. > I can say with 100% sincerity that'd I'd feel the same horror if a White House was similarly going after TCU, or Liberty University, or even Yale I agree. I'm just exasperated by this whole fiasco and that's why my post is so angry in tone

ajross 1y ago
> Hold up - I'm massively pro-academic freedom and autonomy. Then maybe you'd like to rephrase your upthread comment which seems very comfortable with a clear and obvious attack on academic freedom and autonomy? > You don't understand unless you actually attended Harvard. Class of '96. But really I don't see how that's relevant in the face of the current crisis. I can say with 100% sincerity that'd I'd feel the same horror if a White House was similarly going after TCU, or Liberty University, or even Yale. It's. Awful. And it's not made less so because some of the students are Zionists, or Palestinian Sympathizers, or Vegan, or whatever it is you're upset about.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Then maybe you'd like to rephrase your upthread comment which seems very comfortable with a clear and obvious attack on academic freedom and autonomy? On it! I agree with you 100% - it's horrid. > But really I don't see how that's relevant in the face of the current crisis There are some interpersonal relations and egos that got mixed into this, along with a very cynical anti-establishment play. It takes a couple bad apples to spoil the batch, and that's what it feels like has happened. I was a Gov secondary during the Obama years so I bumped into a lot of the people who ended up on either side of the political and cultural divide. I feel digging into that helps explain how this has really snowballed. It's been a rolling crisis for a couple years now. > It's. Awful. And it's not made less so because some of the students are Zionists, or Palestinian Sympathizers, or Vegan, or whatever it is you're upset about I agree, but ignoring some of the ego and personal clashes that has caused this crisis means you lose the bigger picture.

bananalychee 1y ago

Fighting antisemitism is clearly not the true motive behind this ideological "war", just as denazification was clearly not the motive for Russia's invasion of Ukraine; it's just a convenient excuse to target institutions such as Harvard that are unwilling to distance themselves from the progressive left.

JCattheATM 1y ago
Exactly this. It's nothing but an attempt to punish them for not kissing the ring. If only we had another arm of government able to hold this clearly corrupt behavior to account....
- ethbr1 1y ago
  There would have been a stronger one if Ruth Bader Ginsburg had retired at a time that supported a 5/4 ideological balance on the Supreme Court. Instead of the hubris to hold onto the job until death and thereby subsequently undo many of the things she spent her life fighting for. Finding a successor and handing over your power is one of the most important responsibilities of the powerful, when they have a say.
  - JCattheATM 1y ago
    Yeah, that was a pretty bad decision, but the bigger issue is still a population that votes based on misinformation and 'alternative facts'. Until that is resolved, if it even can be at this point, then this tribal and sometimes cultish behavior is only going to become more prevalent, in turn doing more damage to the country. Personally, I think we've started on a path to self-destruction that can't be reversed.
    - AceyMan 1y ago
      > Personally, I think we've started on a path to self-destruction that can't be reversed. Do you mean, 'we' as in the US, or 'we,' as in humanity? [either way, I'm not saying you're wrong :( ]