4 ms·

I get flak for hating Republican voters with the general feeling of most people being that voters are not responsible for the officials THEY elected to represen

by Braxton1980 1y ago

I get flak for hating Republican voters with the general feeling of most people being that voters are not responsible for the officials THEY elected to represent them. I still haven't found a valid argument for why a voter isn't held responsible for the actions of representatives. Especially if the actions would be likely to occur.

Aperocky 1y ago
Are they not?
Boogie_Man 1y ago
In what way would you like to hold them responsible? If there are reprisals for voting, do we live in a liberal democracy? Edit: If by "hold responsible" you mean "be mad at them" then yes, of course you can, I can't read a comment section that isn't mostly that, and you knew that before making this comment.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > In what way would you like to hold them responsible? Being shamed into a little introspection wouldn't hurt.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    This goes both ways.
    - Braxton1980 1y ago
      Why would you feel the need to state this? Obviously it would and it should. If Trump was a Democrat and the same situation was occurring then Democrat voters should be called out
      - firesteelrain 1y ago
        [flagged]
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  >If there are reprisals for voting That's what's happening now.. >"hold responsible" you mean "be mad at them" You make it sound simplistic. I mean calling them out, demanding an explanation. You have friends who support this then let them know you think they are wrong. All these horrific regimes throughout history, how did it happen? The majority of people agreed with it or was a vocal minority left alone because most people just wanted to avoid conflict? I call this selfish. It's like hoping the problem gets solved later that way you get to maintain your relationships.
  - Boogie_Man 1y ago
    If you want to blow up personal relationships over politics because you think it will help, be my guest. People do it routinely. If it is "good" is an open question.
    - Braxton1980 1y ago
      Why would it ruin a relationship to give your opinion or to ask for an explanation from them?
      - Boogie_Man 1y ago
        Because you stated you "hate Republican voters". If you hate Republicans (as a method of "holding them responsible"), it doesn't really make sense to remain friends.
vaidhy 1y ago
Voters face the consequence for their voting. So, in that meaning, they are responsible for the actions of the representatives.
- onlyrealcuzzo 1y ago
  Except sometimes the first order consequences are far greater than second order, and you vote for people who have first order consequences on others.
  - vaidhy 1y ago
    yes, but that is just a form a political attrition war
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  What Republican voter is facing consequences for this specific situation? I do appreciate this notion as I read articles of government workers fired who supported Trump (why a person working for the government would vote Republican is beyond me). Many of Trumps actions attack those that would either likely never vote Republican or can't vote (illegals, groups on special visas that lost them, foreign students, etc)
  - vaidhy 1y ago
    I do not know if you will see this.. however, the consequence is faced by the society for electing someone. It is not that the republican voters face something separate. If you agree that the actions of the current administration are detrimental to the US over long term, those are the consequences. Take Alabama or Oklahoma for example - their policies have made those states backward. People in those states have poor education outcomes, less wealth and less health, lower social mobility etc. It impacts everyone in those states. Either the opposition needs to mobilize, message better etc. or the voters need to compare and realize what they are missing. If not, they will continue to face the consequences.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
squigz 1y ago
I'm a bit confused what you're suggesting here. In what way should people be "held responsible for the actions of representatives"?
- FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago
  [flagged]
- shiandow 1y ago
  That does sound a bit iffy. Not to mention that the ability to vote for who you want without repercussions is rather important to a democracy. Of course if someone loudly states who they voted for they should not be surprised someone else calls them out on it. After all what is voluntarily giving up anonymity, if not an act of support?
orochimaaru 1y ago
Exactly what “consequence” are you talking about? Voting by design is protected from retribution.
- ben_w 1y ago
  Presumably https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Leopards_Eating_People%27s_Faces_Party https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Leopards_Eating_People%27s_Fa...
- tormeh 1y ago
  It's more of an ethical question. Were the people who voted for Hitler bad people because they voted for a bad person? I'd argue that they were. You can't just vote for a horrible person and then say you had nothing to do with the consequences. I'm not the one you replied to, but I assume this is something family related, a la "just because grandpa voted for Trump doesn't mean he's a bad person".
  - bluGill 1y ago
    People didn't have good choices. There was plenty to not like about the Democrats as well. You can argue who is worse, or even if the concerns are valid, but there are plenty of things many people don't like about how the democrats use their power. As such what was a voter to do? There are a long list of things, and most people are not willing accept that "their side" does anything someone else might not like. Doesn't matter what side. Most people are not even willing to honestly listen to "the other side's" concerns. Waters of the US. All the various "woke" issues which harms someone who isn't a minority who sees someone less competent getting business (and then calling them racist when the feel cheated). Immigration or China taking all their jobs. The above is what I can think of just off the top of my head that many people feel democrats have messed up on. (I don't not agree with this entire list, but I'm sure people will shoot the messenger anyway...)
    - krapp 1y ago
      People may not have had a good choice, but they had an obvious choice. The status quo of a Harris term - even considering the likely negatives, her pandering to the right and pro-Zionist stance - would have been objectively preferable to Trump. What is a voter to do? Not vote for the greater evil because they aren't in love with the lesser evil.
woopwoop 1y ago
Most people don't think hard or carefully about politics, and their political views are a very tiny fraction of what they give to the world (this is true even for most people who do think hard and carefully about politics, by the way). Their vote is never pivotal, and their views do not shape any major institutions.
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  >Most people don't think hard or carefully about politics If they vote they should > Their vote is never pivotal.. Votes are pivotal as a sum. This is like not recycling because as an individual action it has no effect. >and their political views are a very tiny fraction of what they give to the world So?
  - woopwoop 1y ago
    Do you hate anyone who doesn't recycle? If so, I think you should set a higher bar for the sins necessary to earn your hatred.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
0xbadcafebee 1y ago
Why would you want a valid argument for holding a voter responsible for the actions of representatives? Arguments have nothing to do with it. Just hold them responsible, or not, for any reason. It makes no difference. Voters don't really choose a representative. They are given choices. Two choices, of which, let's face it, most people will just pick whichever one is on "their side". Those choices are created by outside forces. And those choices, once chosen, will do... whatever the hell they want. There's no consequence to them doing whatever the hell they want. So it doesn't really matter what the choice is to begin with. You're as likely to get what you want by praying to the Flying Spaghetti Monster as by voting. The "choices" are just gonna do whatever the hell they want anyway. Whether you get what you want or not is incidental. But let's assume you do hold somebody responsible for choosing something they have no control over. What does that mean to "hold them responsible" ? You gonna actually do something? Throw them in jail? Kill them? Probably not. You're probably just gonna say nasty things about them on Facebook. Which you could do at any time, for any reason. So who gives a shit what the argument is? It makes no difference to anything at all. You might as well ask for a valid argument for why the sky is blue. Ain't gonna change the sky.
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  >Why would you want a valid argument.. I want them to think about it because... "let's face it, most people will just pick whichever one is on "their side"." >And those choices, once chosen, will do... whatever the hell they want What does this mean? It's not even close to being random or unpredictable. >There's no consequence to them doing whatever the hell they want. Elections >So it doesn't really matter what the choice is to begin with. I'm not sure what you are trying to say, do you mean an elected person has full control of their position's power? Then yes, obviously but you can predict what they will do, you are giving them power. Yes, the options are two choices externally picked. And?
Jensson 1y ago
> I still haven't found a valid argument for why a voter isn't held responsible for the actions of representatives. Especially if the actions would be likely to occur. Does that apply to Gaza as well? Or is it just when people you don't like vote? There is a reason we don't do this, why we didn't punish everyone who voted for Hitler etc.
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  >Does that apply to Gaza as well? Or is it just when people you don't like vote? Yes, it does apply to all situations and people >There is a reason we don't do this, why we didn't punish everyone who voted for Hitler etc. What reason? You just asked a question
pedroma 1y ago
I would just never vote if that's the case.
j_timberlake 1y ago
What about the Dems who primaried Hillary and Biden, ruining the 2016 and 2024 elections? All they had to do was pick someone at least mildly likable and not so old that they'd bomb a 2nd election.
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  >was pick someone at least mildly likable and not so old Biden is 3 years younger than Trump >was pick someone at least mildly likable Likeable how?

Aperocky 1y ago

Are they not?

Boogie_Man 1y ago

In what way would you like to hold them responsible? If there are reprisals for voting, do we live in a liberal democracy? Edit: If by "hold responsible" you mean "be mad at them" then yes, of course you can, I can't read a comment section that isn't mostly that, and you knew that before making this comment.

ceejayoz 1y ago
> In what way would you like to hold them responsible? Being shamed into a little introspection wouldn't hurt.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  This goes both ways.
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    Why would you feel the need to state this? Obviously it would and it should. If Trump was a Democrat and the same situation was occurring then Democrat voters should be called out
    - firesteelrain 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
Braxton1980 1y ago
>If there are reprisals for voting That's what's happening now.. >"hold responsible" you mean "be mad at them" You make it sound simplistic. I mean calling them out, demanding an explanation. You have friends who support this then let them know you think they are wrong. All these horrific regimes throughout history, how did it happen? The majority of people agreed with it or was a vocal minority left alone because most people just wanted to avoid conflict? I call this selfish. It's like hoping the problem gets solved later that way you get to maintain your relationships.
- Boogie_Man 1y ago
  If you want to blow up personal relationships over politics because you think it will help, be my guest. People do it routinely. If it is "good" is an open question.
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    Why would it ruin a relationship to give your opinion or to ask for an explanation from them?
    - Boogie_Man 1y ago
      Because you stated you "hate Republican voters". If you hate Republicans (as a method of "holding them responsible"), it doesn't really make sense to remain friends.

vaidhy 1y ago

Voters face the consequence for their voting. So, in that meaning, they are responsible for the actions of the representatives.

onlyrealcuzzo 1y ago
Except sometimes the first order consequences are far greater than second order, and you vote for people who have first order consequences on others.
- vaidhy 1y ago
  yes, but that is just a form a political attrition war
Braxton1980 1y ago
What Republican voter is facing consequences for this specific situation? I do appreciate this notion as I read articles of government workers fired who supported Trump (why a person working for the government would vote Republican is beyond me). Many of Trumps actions attack those that would either likely never vote Republican or can't vote (illegals, groups on special visas that lost them, foreign students, etc)
- vaidhy 1y ago
  I do not know if you will see this.. however, the consequence is faced by the society for electing someone. It is not that the republican voters face something separate. If you agree that the actions of the current administration are detrimental to the US over long term, those are the consequences. Take Alabama or Oklahoma for example - their policies have made those states backward. People in those states have poor education outcomes, less wealth and less health, lower social mobility etc. It impacts everyone in those states. Either the opposition needs to mobilize, message better etc. or the voters need to compare and realize what they are missing. If not, they will continue to face the consequences.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

squigz 1y ago

I'm a bit confused what you're suggesting here. In what way should people be "held responsible for the actions of representatives"?

FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago
[flagged]
shiandow 1y ago
That does sound a bit iffy. Not to mention that the ability to vote for who you want without repercussions is rather important to a democracy. Of course if someone loudly states who they voted for they should not be surprised someone else calls them out on it. After all what is voluntarily giving up anonymity, if not an act of support?

orochimaaru 1y ago

Exactly what “consequence” are you talking about? Voting by design is protected from retribution.

ben_w 1y ago
Presumably https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Leopards_Eating_People%27s_Faces_Party https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Leopards_Eating_People%27s_Fa...
tormeh 1y ago
It's more of an ethical question. Were the people who voted for Hitler bad people because they voted for a bad person? I'd argue that they were. You can't just vote for a horrible person and then say you had nothing to do with the consequences. I'm not the one you replied to, but I assume this is something family related, a la "just because grandpa voted for Trump doesn't mean he's a bad person".
- bluGill 1y ago
  People didn't have good choices. There was plenty to not like about the Democrats as well. You can argue who is worse, or even if the concerns are valid, but there are plenty of things many people don't like about how the democrats use their power. As such what was a voter to do? There are a long list of things, and most people are not willing accept that "their side" does anything someone else might not like. Doesn't matter what side. Most people are not even willing to honestly listen to "the other side's" concerns. Waters of the US. All the various "woke" issues which harms someone who isn't a minority who sees someone less competent getting business (and then calling them racist when the feel cheated). Immigration or China taking all their jobs. The above is what I can think of just off the top of my head that many people feel democrats have messed up on. (I don't not agree with this entire list, but I'm sure people will shoot the messenger anyway...)
  - krapp 1y ago
    People may not have had a good choice, but they had an obvious choice. The status quo of a Harris term - even considering the likely negatives, her pandering to the right and pro-Zionist stance - would have been objectively preferable to Trump. What is a voter to do? Not vote for the greater evil because they aren't in love with the lesser evil.

woopwoop 1y ago

Most people don't think hard or carefully about politics, and their political views are a very tiny fraction of what they give to the world (this is true even for most people who do think hard and carefully about politics, by the way). Their vote is never pivotal, and their views do not shape any major institutions.

Braxton1980 1y ago
>Most people don't think hard or carefully about politics If they vote they should > Their vote is never pivotal.. Votes are pivotal as a sum. This is like not recycling because as an individual action it has no effect. >and their political views are a very tiny fraction of what they give to the world So?
- woopwoop 1y ago
  Do you hate anyone who doesn't recycle? If so, I think you should set a higher bar for the sins necessary to earn your hatred.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

0xbadcafebee 1y ago

Why would you want a valid argument for holding a voter responsible for the actions of representatives? Arguments have nothing to do with it. Just hold them responsible, or not, for any reason. It makes no difference. Voters don't really choose a representative. They are given choices. Two choices, of which, let's face it, most people will just pick whichever one is on "their side". Those choices are created by outside forces. And those choices, once chosen, will do... whatever the hell they want. There's no consequence to them doing whatever the hell they want. So it doesn't really matter what the choice is to begin with. You're as likely to get what you want by praying to the Flying Spaghetti Monster as by voting. The "choices" are just gonna do whatever the hell they want anyway. Whether you get what you want or not is incidental. But let's assume you do hold somebody responsible for choosing something they have no control over. What does that mean to "hold them responsible" ? You gonna actually do something? Throw them in jail? Kill them? Probably not. You're probably just gonna say nasty things about them on Facebook. Which you could do at any time, for any reason. So who gives a shit what the argument is? It makes no difference to anything at all. You might as well ask for a valid argument for why the sky is blue. Ain't gonna change the sky.

Braxton1980 1y ago
>Why would you want a valid argument.. I want them to think about it because... "let's face it, most people will just pick whichever one is on "their side"." >And those choices, once chosen, will do... whatever the hell they want What does this mean? It's not even close to being random or unpredictable. >There's no consequence to them doing whatever the hell they want. Elections >So it doesn't really matter what the choice is to begin with. I'm not sure what you are trying to say, do you mean an elected person has full control of their position's power? Then yes, obviously but you can predict what they will do, you are giving them power. Yes, the options are two choices externally picked. And?

Jensson 1y ago

> I still haven't found a valid argument for why a voter isn't held responsible for the actions of representatives. Especially if the actions would be likely to occur. Does that apply to Gaza as well? Or is it just when people you don't like vote? There is a reason we don't do this, why we didn't punish everyone who voted for Hitler etc.

Braxton1980 1y ago
>Does that apply to Gaza as well? Or is it just when people you don't like vote? Yes, it does apply to all situations and people >There is a reason we don't do this, why we didn't punish everyone who voted for Hitler etc. What reason? You just asked a question

pedroma 1y ago

I would just never vote if that's the case.

j_timberlake 1y ago

What about the Dems who primaried Hillary and Biden, ruining the 2016 and 2024 elections? All they had to do was pick someone at least mildly likable and not so old that they'd bomb a 2nd election.

Braxton1980 1y ago
>was pick someone at least mildly likable and not so old Biden is 3 years younger than Trump >was pick someone at least mildly likable Likeable how?