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Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge
- ianbooker 1y agoThe article states that the purpose of this is "lost to time". I can image that by now its function is equivalent to a "brown M&M clause".
- iainmerrick 1y agoI'm a bit bemused at that "lost to time", as immediately before that it says: The law requires a bale of straw to be hung from a bridge as a warning to mariners whenever the height between the river and the bridge’s arches is reduced, as it is at Charing Cross at the moment. That seems clear enough! OK, the reason why it specifically has to be a bale of straw isn't obvious, but apart from that it seems very reasonable, just outdated. Edit to add: straw does make sense as a makeshift crash barrier -- you'll notice if you hit it, but hopefully won't actually damage your ship. It seems like you would always just plough through and hit the actual bridge, though.
- raverbashing 1y agoYeah it's amazing (in a bad sense) how those bridge too low warnings are ignored most of the time Well of course when you get stuck then it's too late.
- potato3732842 1y agoThey get ignored because there's a fudge factor built into them. Some states (IL in particular) have absurd fudge factors, so you have 14ft spaces signed as 12.xx and 13'6" trucks drive under them all day every day like it's nothing which basically trains them to ignore the signs. And that's before you consider all the drivers who can't read english at road speeds so anything that isn't the standardized yellow sign right on/beside the object is going to go unnoticed to them a large amount of the time.
- tomxor 1y agoSimilar to how people will read a temporary hand written sign on a door, but filter out a (newly placed) professionally made sign, because the latter looks too permanent. If something has changed, using something out of place or temporary in appearance seems to be the most effective way of getting human attention... A bale of straw feels like it fits the bill.
- mnw21cam 1y agoAbsolutely. A straw bale hanging from a bridge over a river is an anachronism. It doesn't normally belong there, and it's more likely to be noticed than a literal notice.
- tlb 1y agoBales of straw are a cheap, large, soft object you could always find nearby in the pre-motor car days. I can't think of a better object to require.
- bombcar 1y agoWhy does everyone think it’s something to run into? At night it’s a light. It’s obviously a notification system. You visibly see the bale of straw before you get to the bridge and you know to slow down and stop and investigate what the clearance issue is.
- woleium 1y agoYes, a bale of hay used to be a warning of something to look out for on the road ahead
- guerrilla 1y agoIn case anyone else forgot what that means. > The "brown M&M clause" was a specific contract requirement by Van Halen that demanded all brown M&Ms be removed from a bowl of M&Ms provided backstage before their performances. This clause was not a frivolous demand but a way to test if the concert promoters had read the entire contract carefully. If brown M&Ms were found, it indicated that other important technical details might have been overlooked, which could pose safety risks for the band and the audience.
- theshrike79 1y agoAnd an additional note: The Van Halen show wasn't a few dudes with guitars and a set of drums going around in a van. It was a massive display of pyrotechnics and staging - the requirements in the rider weren't there for fun, it was for actual safety.
- guerrilla 1y agoAre you young? I would think that is common knowledge. No offense, genuinely curious. Sounds like I must be getting old.
- red_admiral 1y agoDidn't they also specify something like a 20 ampere widget plugged into a 10 ampere cable or something? If no-one questioned that, they'd hire or bring their own electrician to check absolutely everything with a cable near it. (That might have been another band, it was a long time ago I read this.)
- gcanyon 1y agoThere's a further aspect (supposedly): the brown M&Ms was listed in the pre-check conditions, and the contract stated that if any of them were found to not be in compliance then the Van Halen team had the right to force checks on any/all of them for compliance. So if they found the brown M&Ms it gave them the contractual right to demand that other, more impactful, requirements be (re)checked for compliance.
- CPLX 1y ago
- comrade1234 1y agoI should patent my tennis ball-on-string solution for the same thing.
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- krapp 1y agoIronically, reading the context of Marx's quote about religion being an "opium of the masses" would have provided some necessary insight[0]. There's more to it than just being a quippy zing against religion. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_of_the_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_of_the_people
- dismalpedigree 1y agoThis is why laws should have sunset clauses
- sandworm101 1y agoSunset? So that after a few years people can do work on bridges without having to put up warnings? In a modern context, we wouldn't sunset a law saying that traffic lights be green and red, even though maybe in a few years we might want orange and pink. You dont mess around with safety warning standards.
- potato3732842 1y agoIf the law is actually valuable and there is political capital for its continuation then surely the legislative body can vote to extend it with minimal fuss.
- looperhacks 1y agoIf the law is useless and there is political capital then surely the legislative body can vote to abolish it with minimal fuss. A bit tongue in cheek, of course - but I can't image the amount of unnecessary work regular continuation of _every_ law would cause. Time limits on laws are already a thing, but it shouldn't be a default.
- TRiG_Ireland 1y agoWhat you're suggesting is that if the government is dysfunctional, useful safety standards get abolished. That seems counterproductive.
- Ekaros 1y agoYou do not remove them. But you should change them when environment changes. Straw bale was decent indicator back in the day. But I think there should be some more modern and even global standard that law could be changed to. And this should be done with reasonable planning, schedule and communication.
- metalman 1y agoThis is a good reminder of how law is actualy created and works, and the what our legal foundations are, including the laws governing our rights and responsibilitys. The real thing to understand is that all law is arbitrary, and whatever possible balance and measure is included in existing law, and discussions about change and reform are always predicated on some imagined "justice" to be had, but no matter how "just" or logical a law, someone still has to impliment and administer it, and there in lies the trap, so sticking to an ancient precident speaks volumes about the form that those laws will follow, and how to function inside that legal system. Another recent hint, was an article, here?, about ancient water pumps scattered about greater London, digging there will likely reveal that those pumps have and represent a primary right to water that can not be removed......or ignored...much like the many scattered temples and shrines in Japan where fantastic acomodations in modern building and construction have been made in order to build around, but not over, these structures that have precidence.
- eleveriven 1y agoIt reveals something deeper about how legal systems evolve (or don't).
- card_zero 1y agoThis one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44024278 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44024278
- maratc 1y agoThat's the British system working as designed. If there's a law, no matter how ancient, the British should comply. If a law needs to be changed, that's the Parliament's job. Even the British courts, in sharp contrast to many other places, "deliver the law as it is, and not as we wish it to be" -- see for example [0] or [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_v_Thornton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_v_Thornton [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_v_Owens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_v_Owens
- breggles 1y agoSo, the full clause reads: "When the headroom of an arch or span of a bridge is reduced from its usual limits but that arch or span is not closed to navigation, the person in control of the bridge must suspend from the centre of that arch or span by day a bundle of straw large enough to be conspicuous and by night a white light." Does that mean the law is not being complied with, in this case, since the bales are hanging from adjacent bridges, not the "centre of that arch or span" itself?
- maratc 1y agoI think you'd need a couple of "solicitors" -- or maybe even "barristers" -- to decide on that. I'm neither :)
- ipsin 1y agoThanks, I was annoyed that the article didn't cite the actual law in question, but the BBC comes in with "Port of London Thames Byelaws, clause 36.2" https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cmlrx89jdv2o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cmlrx89jdv2o
- maratc 1y agoThe BBC also didn't call it "ancient," which would be questionable considering that the law is from 2012.
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- bb123 1y agoReminds me of the fact that for 500 years everyone graduating with a BA from Oxford had to swear that they would never agree to the reconciliation of Henry Symeonis, despite no one having any idea who he was for most of that time.
- jgrahamc 1y agoYes! I was disappointed to learn when I graduated with my BA that this oath was no longer required. However, I continue refuse to reconcile with Henry Symeonis. It's only been 800 years, you never know when it might be important. After all, the Anglo-Portuguese is still in force 650 years on!
- avhception 1y agoClearly a case of Chesterton's Fence. Who knows what eldritch horrors might result from the removal of that oath!
- throwup238 1y agoSomeone outside of Eton might get elected.
- zeristor 1y agoBut then we wouldn’t be in a Mess.
- jvvw 1y agoLooks like it was removed in 1827. I don't actually remember having to say anything at any of my graduation ceremonies there (BA, MA, DPhil), just walking on to the stage. I do wonder if at matriculation we all had to make some oath together but I think I would have remembered if that had been the case. I have a strong feeling though I might have had to make an oath when I became a scholar - there was definitely a ceremony we had to go to - but that would have been college-dependent.
- radiorental 1y agoWhy a bail of straw? Reminds me of the forgotten reason why the onion was thrown into the varnish "Primo Levi was working in a varnish factory. He was a chemist, and he was fascinated by the fact that the varnish recipe included a raw onion. What could it be for? No one knew; it was just part of the recipe. So he investigated, and eventually discovered that they had started throwing the onion in years ago to test the temperature of the varnish: if it was hot enough, the onion would fry."
- DocTomoe 1y agoOften, these things are utilitarian, not mystical. So my educated guess: Back in the day, the main problem was river mariners getting hurt by bridge arches that were lower than expected, and the bale of straw was a 'soft buffer' - better to get your head hit by a swinging bale of straw than a rock-solid bridge.
- Sharlin 1y agoMore likely that a bale of hay was simply a conspicuous but lightweight thing that was easy to get your hands on back in the day.
- tdeck 1y agoAlso if it comes undone and falls in the river, it's not likely to do any harm. Aside: Although the article makes the same mistake, hay and straw are not the same thing. Hay is dead green grass-like plants. Straw is dead brown grass-like plant matter that has finished it's lifecycle and used up all the sugars and things in it. Hay gets moldy more easily but has nutrients for animals while straw does not decompose as quickly.
- Sharlin 1y agoYes, I realized that after the edit grace period. Specifically, straw is the dried stalks of cereal that have very little nutritional value to begin with, whereas hay is reaped grass, legumes, whatever herbaceous plants that grazing livestock normally eat.
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- leeoniya 1y agowe have a bridge near where i live that can use such a warning crash barrier. you'd think they'd install one after 65 bridge strikes in the last few years. their solution was to build a a stronger bridge, rofl. i guess at this point it's a cherished tradition :D. there's probably a youtube mashup of all the phone-recorded strikes. https://www.lakemchenryscanner.com/2025/05/20/box-truck-hits-historic-robert-parker-coffin-bridge-in-long-grove-over-65th-time-bridge-has-been-struck/ https://www.lakemchenryscanner.com/2025/05/20/box-truck-hits...
- kylehotchkiss 1y agoHalf the fun of renting a Penske truck is learning what that bridge height sign was designed for.
- userbinator 1y agoI thought it'd be about this infamous bridge: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23587190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23587190
- saravanan2661 1y agoA scarecrow for ships! That's interesting!
- eleveriven 1y agoLike a bit of medieval cosplay sneaking into modern infrastructure work. A tiny reminder that history isn’t just in museums... it's literally hanging off our bridges.
- fsckboy 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topping_out#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topping_out#History the practice of "topping out" a new building can be traced to the ancient Scandinavian religious rite of placing a tree atop a new building to appease the tree-dwelling spirits displaced in its construction... The practice remains common in the United Kingdom and assorted Commonwealth countries such as Australia[7] and Canada,[8] as well as Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Iceland, Chile, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary and the Baltic States. In the United States the last beam of a skyscraper is often painted white and signed by all the workers involved.[7] In New Zealand, completion of the roof to a water-proof state is celebrated through a "roof shout", where workers are treated to cake and beer.[9]
- guerrilla 1y ago> to appease the tree-dwelling spirits displaced in its construction. It seems not: > A Scandinavian tradition of hoisting a pine tree to the top of framed out buildings had a more functional purpose: when the pine needles fell off, the builders knew the wood frame below had cured/dried out so they could enclose the building.[2]
- bjackman 1y agoIt seems like the original idea here would be to hang the hay at slightly below the height of the next bridge. That way it serves as a physical indication that your vessel's too tall. But, in the picture it seems to be a) hung higher than the scaffolding and b) too close to it to actually give vessels a chance to turn around.
- fsckboy 1y agocould be the hay was for a softer landing if you hit it
- moomin 1y agoMy wife, reading this: "I see Westminster's PR department are doing their job."
- w0de0 1y agoThis is treated as a whimsical absurdity, but it has a practical purpose that’s hardly obviated by the antiquity of the law. I’m a sailor myself - I’d certainly want a warning that a bridge is lower than its charted height. The signal is clearly listed in the relevant Port of London notice to mariners [0]. Moreover, the signal also shows the height of the restriction (and in a neat, safe way - nudge the straw and you’ll know you’re too tall): “Where the headroom is reduced this will be signalled in accordance with the Port of London Authority Thames Byelaw 36.1 namely: “By Day – A bundle of straw large enough to be easily visible and displayed at the height of restricted headroom” 0 - https://pla.co.uk/notices/M63-25 https://pla.co.uk/notices/M63-25
- lolinder 1y agoThis also means that this line is also inaccurate: > For convenience, they’re actually hanging from the Jubilee footbridges, one on either side of the railway. It's not for simple convenience: you can see in the photos that it's because the footbridges are taller then the rail bridge and come a bit before it, which allows them to install the straw hanging at the correct height to warn of the constriction before someone hits the bridge itself.
- fsckboy 1y agoi find being warned in advance a most convenient way to avoid hitting the bridge, and if the walkways are already installed in the right place to put the bales, why that's a very convenient place to put them. if the walkways were the same height as the bridge, it would not afford that convenience because then the footbridges would themselves be the obstruction you're in danger of hitting, which would be most inconvenient.
- krick 1y agoMaybe when this was invented, the bundle of straw was the best they could do, I don't know, but surely today you can produce a more visible, more robust, reusable and, ironically, cheaper sign than that.
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