4 ms·

The keyboard is a crutch? I strongly disagree. When there is another input method that allows me to rapidly and precisely enter text, then, at that point the

by ansible 14y ago

The keyboard is a crutch? I strongly disagree. When there is another input method that allows me to rapidly and precisely enter text, then, at that point the keyboard will be a crutch for us old fogies. I haven't seen anything short of a direct neural interface that can replace a keyboard in the near future. I've tried some of the alternatives, but I didn't see myself becoming fast and accurate enough for them not to be annoying.

dkrich 14y ago
Agreed. There just isn't a more effective tool for communicating instructions to a computer than a keyboard, and I don't think it's really close. To say that the keyboard is "a crutch to the past" is in my view no different than saying that spoken words or written language are a crutch to the past. Just because something has worked well for a long time doesn't mean that it necessarily is due for a change. Sometimes just working well is far more valuable than perceived convenience or migrating to new technologies. To me the only real pain point for using a keyboard is added bulk, but that in and of itself is not a huge deal. In fact when I am traveling and have to use my laptop, I miss having my iMac keyboard with a number pad and additional inputs that don't have to be combined into single keys with multiple functions. There's a reason nobody codes on their phones or tablets- there's no effective way to communicate with it at high speeds.
- whatusername 14y ago
  Really? I'd love to see you edit a photo using just a keyboard. A Physical keyboard is incredibly limited because it allows us to communicate one of two things to the computer. We can communicate a single character. (ie - a fraction of a word which is a fraction of an idea). Or we can communicate a single pre-defined intent (ie - a function key or shortcut). The way we communicate intents (CTRL-C, ESC, CTRL-ALT-DEL, F5) changes with the application but the Hardware itself doesn't). This is very limiting.
  - goostavos 14y ago
    >I'd love to see you edit a photo using just a keyboard. Heh, I'd like to see you edit without one. Any editor worth his salt will have mapped his shortcuts to sit under his keyboard hand. How is moving a finger 1/4 of an inch in any direction to call entirely new windows/tool/pulgins/etc limiting? What do you suggest as a betting input device? >The way we communicate intents (CTRL-C, ESC, CTRL-ALT-DEL, F5) changes with the application but the Hardware itself doesn't). This is very limiting. Could you expand on this? I don't quite get the point your trying to make.
  - dkrich 14y ago
    Obviously when I speak about the keyboard, I'm referring to text-based communication. If you need to drag-and-drop, I've found a mouse to work quite well. With those two tools I can do just about everything my current hardware will allow very effectively. And yes, I find a mouse far more precise and effective than touch-based inputs. Try using your desktop for a few days without a keyboard and see how limiting that is. There's a reason he only speaks of relying on his iPad when he's away from home. It's not a practical device for productivity.
lloeki 14y ago
You read this too fast. > My main issue is that I view the physical keyboard as a crutch (emphasis mine) Later: > I’m sure I could get used to the software keyboard — in fact, I see people from time to time who seem faster typing on it than a real one I have witnessed it myself. Everyone witnessed the same argument a few years ago "oh but you can't possibly type faster on the iPhone soft keyboard than on a real hardware Android/BlackBerry keyboard!". And it turned out, oh yes you can (some people reach in the 80+ WPM). Now I can hear someone over there who says 'but you can't touch type! you can't possibly be faster!', to which I anwser: 1. how many people really know how to touch type? 2. how many people have a proper keyboard for touch-typing? The answer is already scarce even among the developer/hacker crowd, when you extend to the myriad of computer users around the world, the answer is hardly any. For a point of reference, the average user types at 33 WPM. I was typing faster than that (~45 WPM) on the iPad on day one. There are a number of studies comparatively evaluating typing efficiency. This study[0] shows 43 WPM for touchscreen vs 61 WPM for netbook. Excerpt from the conclusion: These results were not surprising given the familiarity of the participants with physical keyboards. [...] Performance on both iPad keyboards was impressive for first-time users. Some participants said that they thought they would enjoy using the keyboard on the iPad more if they had additional time to practice. Please note, I'm not telling laptops are going anywhere (the same way desktops did not go anywhere when laptops came around). They are undoubtedly power houses by all metrics compared to tablets. I'm not telling the current touchscreen keyboards are perfect either: I wish more symbol keys were readily available, and some form of haptic feedback would be nice (via EM fields or whatever). Remember this has only been a few years since (real) tablets have been around. The first laptops were similarly craptastic compared to their desktop siblings. [0] Keyboard Performance: iPad versus Netbook: http://www.surl.org/usabilitynews/122/ipadtyping.asp http://www.surl.org/usabilitynews/122/ipadtyping.asp
- ansible 14y ago
  You read this too fast. No, I assure you that I believe that the physical kyboard is not a crutch, nor is it going away for many users such as myself for a good long time. And it turned out, oh yes you can (some people reach in the 80+ WPM). I suppose if you are typing regular text this might be possible with a lot of practice. My main gripe is that a smooth flat rectangle doesn't provide enough positioning feedback for me. Others feel the same way, though I won't try to speak for the majority. This study[0] shows 43 WPM for touchscreen vs 61 WPM for netbook. I must first point out that unless you have tiny hands, a netbook has a poor physical keyboard. You seem to be arguing two different things. Most people don't know how to touch type, and they'd do just about as well with an iPad. My response to that is "maybe". When you make blanket statements like: My main issue is that I view the physical keyboard as a crutch Then you are saying on-screen keyboards are fine for everybody. I disagree with that, vehemently. When typing with a physical keyboard, I'll sometimes feel that I've made a mistake, and I'll start correcting it right away. Without looking and the part of the screen where I'm entering text. With an on-screen keyboard, my attention must stay focused on where my hands are in relation to it, and on the text entry itself. I can't feel if I've made a mistake (or typed correctly) I can only see if I've made a mistake. As a long-time touch typist, this lack of feedback bothers me greatly, and slows down my overall process, not just the text entry itself.

by ansible 14y ago

dkrich 14y ago

Agreed. There just isn't a more effective tool for communicating instructions to a computer than a keyboard, and I don't think it's really close. To say that the keyboard is "a crutch to the past" is in my view no different than saying that spoken words or written language are a crutch to the past. Just because something has worked well for a long time doesn't mean that it necessarily is due for a change. Sometimes just working well is far more valuable than perceived convenience or migrating to new technologies. To me the only real pain point for using a keyboard is added bulk, but that in and of itself is not a huge deal. In fact when I am traveling and have to use my laptop, I miss having my iMac keyboard with a number pad and additional inputs that don't have to be combined into single keys with multiple functions. There's a reason nobody codes on their phones or tablets- there's no effective way to communicate with it at high speeds.

whatusername 14y ago
Really? I'd love to see you edit a photo using just a keyboard. A Physical keyboard is incredibly limited because it allows us to communicate one of two things to the computer. We can communicate a single character. (ie - a fraction of a word which is a fraction of an idea). Or we can communicate a single pre-defined intent (ie - a function key or shortcut). The way we communicate intents (CTRL-C, ESC, CTRL-ALT-DEL, F5) changes with the application but the Hardware itself doesn't). This is very limiting.
- goostavos 14y ago
  >I'd love to see you edit a photo using just a keyboard. Heh, I'd like to see you edit without one. Any editor worth his salt will have mapped his shortcuts to sit under his keyboard hand. How is moving a finger 1/4 of an inch in any direction to call entirely new windows/tool/pulgins/etc limiting? What do you suggest as a betting input device? >The way we communicate intents (CTRL-C, ESC, CTRL-ALT-DEL, F5) changes with the application but the Hardware itself doesn't). This is very limiting. Could you expand on this? I don't quite get the point your trying to make.
- dkrich 14y ago
  Obviously when I speak about the keyboard, I'm referring to text-based communication. If you need to drag-and-drop, I've found a mouse to work quite well. With those two tools I can do just about everything my current hardware will allow very effectively. And yes, I find a mouse far more precise and effective than touch-based inputs. Try using your desktop for a few days without a keyboard and see how limiting that is. There's a reason he only speaks of relying on his iPad when he's away from home. It's not a practical device for productivity.

lloeki 14y ago

You read this too fast. > My main issue is that I view the physical keyboard as a crutch (emphasis mine) Later: > I’m sure I could get used to the software keyboard — in fact, I see people from time to time who seem faster typing on it than a real one I have witnessed it myself. Everyone witnessed the same argument a few years ago "oh but you can't possibly type faster on the iPhone soft keyboard than on a real hardware Android/BlackBerry keyboard!". And it turned out, oh yes you can (some people reach in the 80+ WPM). Now I can hear someone over there who says 'but you can't touch type! you can't possibly be faster!', to which I anwser: 1. how many people really know how to touch type? 2. how many people have a proper keyboard for touch-typing? The answer is already scarce even among the developer/hacker crowd, when you extend to the myriad of computer users around the world, the answer is hardly any. For a point of reference, the average user types at 33 WPM. I was typing faster than that (~45 WPM) on the iPad on day one. There are a number of studies comparatively evaluating typing efficiency. This study[0] shows 43 WPM for touchscreen vs 61 WPM for netbook. Excerpt from the conclusion: These results were not surprising given the familiarity of the participants with physical keyboards. [...] Performance on both iPad keyboards was impressive for first-time users. Some participants said that they thought they would enjoy using the keyboard on the iPad more if they had additional time to practice. Please note, I'm not telling laptops are going anywhere (the same way desktops did not go anywhere when laptops came around). They are undoubtedly power houses by all metrics compared to tablets. I'm not telling the current touchscreen keyboards are perfect either: I wish more symbol keys were readily available, and some form of haptic feedback would be nice (via EM fields or whatever). Remember this has only been a few years since (real) tablets have been around. The first laptops were similarly craptastic compared to their desktop siblings. [0] Keyboard Performance: iPad versus Netbook: http://www.surl.org/usabilitynews/122/ipadtyping.asp http://www.surl.org/usabilitynews/122/ipadtyping.asp

ansible 14y ago
You read this too fast. No, I assure you that I believe that the physical kyboard is not a crutch, nor is it going away for many users such as myself for a good long time. And it turned out, oh yes you can (some people reach in the 80+ WPM). I suppose if you are typing regular text this might be possible with a lot of practice. My main gripe is that a smooth flat rectangle doesn't provide enough positioning feedback for me. Others feel the same way, though I won't try to speak for the majority. This study[0] shows 43 WPM for touchscreen vs 61 WPM for netbook. I must first point out that unless you have tiny hands, a netbook has a poor physical keyboard. You seem to be arguing two different things. Most people don't know how to touch type, and they'd do just about as well with an iPad. My response to that is "maybe". When you make blanket statements like: My main issue is that I view the physical keyboard as a crutch Then you are saying on-screen keyboards are fine for everybody. I disagree with that, vehemently. When typing with a physical keyboard, I'll sometimes feel that I've made a mistake, and I'll start correcting it right away. Without looking and the part of the screen where I'm entering text. With an on-screen keyboard, my attention must stay focused on where my hands are in relation to it, and on the text entry itself. I can't feel if I've made a mistake (or typed correctly) I can only see if I've made a mistake. As a long-time touch typist, this lack of feedback bothers me greatly, and slows down my overall process, not just the text entry itself.