10 ms·

The problem is, until laptops sold at Walmart or Best Buy start coming with Linux pre-installed as an option, adoption will never happen. Installing an aftermar

by WD-42 1y ago

The problem is, until laptops sold at Walmart or Best Buy start coming with Linux pre-installed as an option, adoption will never happen. Installing an aftermarket OS is just an incredibly unrealistic expectation from the average user. Microsoft knows this, and they will do everything they can to prevent OEMs from shipping anything other than Windows. Apple of course, forget it. Their profit comes from leeching off FOSS and selling it, they would never allow distribution of it directly.

CalRobert 1y ago
For what it's worth, it can almost be done (but is still a minority) https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
fsflover 1y ago
Purism and System76 offer laptops with preinstalled GNU/Linux.
- throitallaway 1y ago
  Lenovo currently offers Linux (Ubuntu) as an option Thinkpads. Dell used to once upon a time; I don't know if they still do.
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    Dell still does. https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
- WD-42 1y ago
  Yes and they are great. But you have to already know they exist and seek them out.
  - mingus88 1y ago
    Until these vendors break into EDU it’s an uphill battle. In WA, every school has Microsoft smart boards and laptops running windows. Kids grow up using it and when they buy their own computers they aren’t going to choose a small boutique builder running an unfamiliar OS they won’t know how to use right away. Apple has a lock on a lot of EDU as well, and the iPhone is so ubiquitous it’s an easy sell to get folk using other products Those systems look beautiful but it’s a minority of people that will make a large purchase on something like this.
    - mistercheph 1y ago
      You think kids have brand loyalty to the vendors that scam/muscle/bribe their way into the classroom? Most of the EDU software is trash, the incentives are all aligned to spend billions on acquiring the contract and close to zero on execution and most of these kids are traumatized from sitting in a classroom with some clueless dope at the front yelling at them to IPad IPad IPad algebra
    - monooso 1y ago
      It would be a surprise if Microsoft didn't have WA locked.
- red-iron-pine 1y ago
  I don't know what they're like these days but before they were essentially white-label Clevo hardware with PopOS or Ubuntu, etc.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    Why does it matter? They provide the support for GNU/Linux and work fine. Also Purism laptops aren't Clevo and never were.
    - catlover76 1y ago
      [dead]
- weinzierl 1y ago
  Don't forget Tuxedo.
LexiMax 1y ago
This seems like a worldview borne from an era where the PC was _the_ definitive, ubiquitous computing device of choice for the layperson. These days, that crown is taken by the smartphone. If you need a PC in 2025, you're probably a fair bit more knowledgeable than someone buying one in 2005. You're also almost certainly buying one online, possibly even directly from the manufacturer or builder, which means the seller can simply give you options and doesn't have to worry about competing for store shelf space.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  > These days, that crown is taken by the smartphone. Which, if you use Android, is ...Linux... iOS is really just repackaged UINX.
  - odo1242 1y ago
    iOS is pretty much Apple’s fully bespoke operating system at this point. You might be overestimating how much it actually shares with Unix (it boils down to a few standard libraries and terminal commands and no actual code). Functionally, iOS and Linux are only about as similar as a penguin and a robotic statue of a penguin.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      Well, I'm not sure exactly what's under the hood, but I write Apple software, and I use a lot of the same NSXXX calls that have been in it since the dawn of OSX. NextStep was a shell over FreeBSD. MacOS X was an evolution of NextStep. Some time ago, I wrote a network driver for iOS, and used BSD sockets, accessed via standard C. I remember using the BSD manual, to figure out how to use them. The NS calls behave the same now, as they did, back when OSX was new, and, at that time, MacOS was definitely UINX. iOS is a direct descendant of MacOS.
      - int_19h 1y ago
        macOS is literally certified Unix. Apple still shells out for certification of their new releases, although I'm not sure what they're getting out of it given that macOS Server isn't a thing anymore. iOS is arguably a subset, but whether it's Unix-like or not is a philosophical question depending on how you define the minimal set of features that'd make it one. It's certainly not Unix-like from the end user perspective.
ethagnawl 1y ago
> Microsoft knows this, and they will do everything they can to prevent OEMs from shipping anything other than Windows You're right and they effectively licensed XP to Asus for free for use on the Eee PC (which originally only shipped with Linux) when it was shaping up to be a hit. This is a worthwhile watch if you're interested in this corner of computing history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVno8dlM3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVno8dlM3E
- keyringlight 1y ago
  The way that the netbook 'evolutionary branch' went from lean and mean to underspecified bloated windows small laptops is one where I really wonder if MS suffocated something that would have been to their benefit longer term if only they could have put out their own lean OS and an ecosystem of lean software to run on it. It was at the time mobiles were picking up momentum, and just before tablets arrived on the scene (the ipad launched 2010, the tablet focused Android 3 came out in 2011), and a lot of people migrated away from windows for their personal computing needs. There's also been MS's ultimately failed efforts for their own mobile platform. Besides the established huge momentum of gaming and professional/office usage it's difficult to see why consumers would move to windows, or what MS offers to prevent the momentum slowing and linux slowly chipping away at it.
- arp242 1y ago
  I worked at a computer shop at the time. Few consumers wanted the Linux versions: they all chose Windows. I'm not sure the license was free, as the Windows machines were more expensive with the same hardware. Either way: people wanted what they knew, which was Windows, and they paid more for it. I wrote about this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41431733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41431733
  - ethagnawl 1y ago
    I don't doubt your experience but the linked video emphasizes that the cost for the device with XP was the same $399. This is from a random contemporaneous TechCrunch article about the 2nd/3rd? gen offerings: Eee PC 901 (Linux or Windows): $599 Eee PC 1000 (Linux or Windows): $699 https://techcrunch.com/2008/06/13/new-eee-pc-models-get-us-pricing-starting-at-599/ https://techcrunch.com/2008/06/13/new-eee-pc-models-get-us-p...
amatecha 1y ago
Adoption is already happening, as it has been for years, but especially now that MS and Apple are producing worse and worse OS/software that treats the people who use it worse and worse. I'm frequently pleasantly surprised by hearing that someone uses a Linux machine with regularity. It used to be a really rare, techie-only kind of thing. Pulling people away from literal decades of complete personal-computing domination with a completely free, near-zero-marketing alternative is a very slow, gradual process. It's great that those dominant vendors are doing their very best to push everyone to the alternatives :)
- int_19h 1y ago
  This is all well and good, but the problem is, I've seen comments word for word like this one back in 2006 - and wrote some of them myself even. Back then it was Vista that was supposed to drive Windows users away, and, indeed, I personally helped some brave folk switch. Some lasted longer than ours but all were eventually back on Windows.
  - amatecha 1y ago
    Yeah, for me the big difference is the past year or two people are actually asking me about Linux and wanting my help to try it out because they are sick of Windows and sick of the forced updates. My aunt's external HDD got wiped from a Win10 forced update (no clue why, I didn't investigate in-depth). People are just done with that shit.
godelski 1y ago
> until laptops sold at Walmart or Best Buy start coming with Linux pre-installed as an option This is a circular problem though. They'll do it if Linux starts becoming more popular. If you want to see this, make sure your browser agent is broadcasting Linux[0]. Make sure you're using Steam in Linux. But right now Steam has Linux at <3%[1]. It is more than OSX, but not enough. I do think above 5% and it'll start to be taken seriously, and 10% we'll start seeing moves. Linux doesn't need 90% of the marketshare to dramatically change the world. 10% is more than enough. Even 20% would be momentous and force both Microsoft and Apple to change strategies. Don't feel like there's no hope. Just because it is an unrealistic expectation today doesn't mean it will be tomorrow. And your actions today change the odds of what happens tomorrow. So don't give up. You don't have to change the world overnight. But you do need to make steps in the right direction, even if small, to make the world move. [0] You can even do this while using Windows! Hell, you can use Chrome and tell people you're using Firefox on Linux if you believe in those things but just are unwilling to make the switch yourself. The signaling still does something (it is better than nothing). [1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...
- Analemma_ 1y ago
  > But right now Steam has Linux at <3%[1]. I think the overwhelming majority of this is Steam Deck usage. While that's certainly a feather in the cap for Linux, I don't think really counts toward Linux momentum as we're using the term here. Nobody is going to start investing in polished desktop Linux software because there are a lot of Steam Deck buyers.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - pona-a 1y ago
    KDE has seen plenty of activity related to the Steam Desk, I heard. Valve regularly contribute to Wine, which is used for desktop Windows software. If the entire stack is consistent between the two, how wouldn't it translate to better desktop software? It's the same as how server investment in the kernel benefits the desktop users, only with a much greater intersection.
jayofdoom 1y ago
ChromeOS is the desktop linux you can get installed on Wal-Mart PCs. It is linux even if not the linux we want :D
90s_dev 1y ago
Most people just don't care that they're being spied on. Most people don't care about anything actually, they're in a constant state of despair and see no point to anything so they just try to make the best of the time they have.
caseyy 1y ago
You can buy a PC with Linux off the shelf in some countries. In practice, it's an open secret that the machines are for people who don't want to pay for a Windows license but will use Windows anyway.

by WD-42 1y ago

CalRobert 1y ago

For what it's worth, it can almost be done (but is still a minority) https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...

fsflover 1y ago

Purism and System76 offer laptops with preinstalled GNU/Linux.

throitallaway 1y ago
Lenovo currently offers Linux (Ubuntu) as an option Thinkpads. Dell used to once upon a time; I don't know if they still do.
- lupusreal 1y ago
  Dell still does. https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
WD-42 1y ago
Yes and they are great. But you have to already know they exist and seek them out.
- mingus88 1y ago
  Until these vendors break into EDU it’s an uphill battle. In WA, every school has Microsoft smart boards and laptops running windows. Kids grow up using it and when they buy their own computers they aren’t going to choose a small boutique builder running an unfamiliar OS they won’t know how to use right away. Apple has a lock on a lot of EDU as well, and the iPhone is so ubiquitous it’s an easy sell to get folk using other products Those systems look beautiful but it’s a minority of people that will make a large purchase on something like this.
  - mistercheph 1y ago
    You think kids have brand loyalty to the vendors that scam/muscle/bribe their way into the classroom? Most of the EDU software is trash, the incentives are all aligned to spend billions on acquiring the contract and close to zero on execution and most of these kids are traumatized from sitting in a classroom with some clueless dope at the front yelling at them to IPad IPad IPad algebra
  - monooso 1y ago
    It would be a surprise if Microsoft didn't have WA locked.
red-iron-pine 1y ago
I don't know what they're like these days but before they were essentially white-label Clevo hardware with PopOS or Ubuntu, etc.
- fsflover 1y ago
  Why does it matter? They provide the support for GNU/Linux and work fine. Also Purism laptops aren't Clevo and never were.
  - catlover76 1y ago
    [dead]
weinzierl 1y ago
Don't forget Tuxedo.

LexiMax 1y ago

This seems like a worldview borne from an era where the PC was _the_ definitive, ubiquitous computing device of choice for the layperson. These days, that crown is taken by the smartphone. If you need a PC in 2025, you're probably a fair bit more knowledgeable than someone buying one in 2005. You're also almost certainly buying one online, possibly even directly from the manufacturer or builder, which means the seller can simply give you options and doesn't have to worry about competing for store shelf space.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
> These days, that crown is taken by the smartphone. Which, if you use Android, is ...Linux... iOS is really just repackaged UINX.
- odo1242 1y ago
  iOS is pretty much Apple’s fully bespoke operating system at this point. You might be overestimating how much it actually shares with Unix (it boils down to a few standard libraries and terminal commands and no actual code). Functionally, iOS and Linux are only about as similar as a penguin and a robotic statue of a penguin.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    Well, I'm not sure exactly what's under the hood, but I write Apple software, and I use a lot of the same NSXXX calls that have been in it since the dawn of OSX. NextStep was a shell over FreeBSD. MacOS X was an evolution of NextStep. Some time ago, I wrote a network driver for iOS, and used BSD sockets, accessed via standard C. I remember using the BSD manual, to figure out how to use them. The NS calls behave the same now, as they did, back when OSX was new, and, at that time, MacOS was definitely UINX. iOS is a direct descendant of MacOS.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      macOS is literally certified Unix. Apple still shells out for certification of their new releases, although I'm not sure what they're getting out of it given that macOS Server isn't a thing anymore. iOS is arguably a subset, but whether it's Unix-like or not is a philosophical question depending on how you define the minimal set of features that'd make it one. It's certainly not Unix-like from the end user perspective.

ethagnawl 1y ago

> Microsoft knows this, and they will do everything they can to prevent OEMs from shipping anything other than Windows You're right and they effectively licensed XP to Asus for free for use on the Eee PC (which originally only shipped with Linux) when it was shaping up to be a hit. This is a worthwhile watch if you're interested in this corner of computing history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVno8dlM3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVno8dlM3E

keyringlight 1y ago
The way that the netbook 'evolutionary branch' went from lean and mean to underspecified bloated windows small laptops is one where I really wonder if MS suffocated something that would have been to their benefit longer term if only they could have put out their own lean OS and an ecosystem of lean software to run on it. It was at the time mobiles were picking up momentum, and just before tablets arrived on the scene (the ipad launched 2010, the tablet focused Android 3 came out in 2011), and a lot of people migrated away from windows for their personal computing needs. There's also been MS's ultimately failed efforts for their own mobile platform. Besides the established huge momentum of gaming and professional/office usage it's difficult to see why consumers would move to windows, or what MS offers to prevent the momentum slowing and linux slowly chipping away at it.
arp242 1y ago
I worked at a computer shop at the time. Few consumers wanted the Linux versions: they all chose Windows. I'm not sure the license was free, as the Windows machines were more expensive with the same hardware. Either way: people wanted what they knew, which was Windows, and they paid more for it. I wrote about this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41431733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41431733
- ethagnawl 1y ago
  I don't doubt your experience but the linked video emphasizes that the cost for the device with XP was the same $399. This is from a random contemporaneous TechCrunch article about the 2nd/3rd? gen offerings: Eee PC 901 (Linux or Windows): $599 Eee PC 1000 (Linux or Windows): $699 https://techcrunch.com/2008/06/13/new-eee-pc-models-get-us-pricing-starting-at-599/ https://techcrunch.com/2008/06/13/new-eee-pc-models-get-us-p...

amatecha 1y ago

Adoption is already happening, as it has been for years, but especially now that MS and Apple are producing worse and worse OS/software that treats the people who use it worse and worse. I'm frequently pleasantly surprised by hearing that someone uses a Linux machine with regularity. It used to be a really rare, techie-only kind of thing. Pulling people away from literal decades of complete personal-computing domination with a completely free, near-zero-marketing alternative is a very slow, gradual process. It's great that those dominant vendors are doing their very best to push everyone to the alternatives :)

int_19h 1y ago
This is all well and good, but the problem is, I've seen comments word for word like this one back in 2006 - and wrote some of them myself even. Back then it was Vista that was supposed to drive Windows users away, and, indeed, I personally helped some brave folk switch. Some lasted longer than ours but all were eventually back on Windows.
- amatecha 1y ago
  Yeah, for me the big difference is the past year or two people are actually asking me about Linux and wanting my help to try it out because they are sick of Windows and sick of the forced updates. My aunt's external HDD got wiped from a Win10 forced update (no clue why, I didn't investigate in-depth). People are just done with that shit.

godelski 1y ago

> until laptops sold at Walmart or Best Buy start coming with Linux pre-installed as an option This is a circular problem though. They'll do it if Linux starts becoming more popular. If you want to see this, make sure your browser agent is broadcasting Linux[0]. Make sure you're using Steam in Linux. But right now Steam has Linux at <3%[1]. It is more than OSX, but not enough. I do think above 5% and it'll start to be taken seriously, and 10% we'll start seeing moves. Linux doesn't need 90% of the marketshare to dramatically change the world. 10% is more than enough. Even 20% would be momentous and force both Microsoft and Apple to change strategies. Don't feel like there's no hope. Just because it is an unrealistic expectation today doesn't mean it will be tomorrow. And your actions today change the odds of what happens tomorrow. So don't give up. You don't have to change the world overnight. But you do need to make steps in the right direction, even if small, to make the world move. [0] You can even do this while using Windows! Hell, you can use Chrome and tell people you're using Firefox on Linux if you believe in those things but just are unwilling to make the switch yourself. The signaling still does something (it is better than nothing). [1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

Analemma_ 1y ago
> But right now Steam has Linux at <3%[1]. I think the overwhelming majority of this is Steam Deck usage. While that's certainly a feather in the cap for Linux, I don't think really counts toward Linux momentum as we're using the term here. Nobody is going to start investing in polished desktop Linux software because there are a lot of Steam Deck buyers.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- pona-a 1y ago
  KDE has seen plenty of activity related to the Steam Desk, I heard. Valve regularly contribute to Wine, which is used for desktop Windows software. If the entire stack is consistent between the two, how wouldn't it translate to better desktop software? It's the same as how server investment in the kernel benefits the desktop users, only with a much greater intersection.

jayofdoom 1y ago

ChromeOS is the desktop linux you can get installed on Wal-Mart PCs. It is linux even if not the linux we want :D

90s_dev 1y ago

Most people just don't care that they're being spied on. Most people don't care about anything actually, they're in a constant state of despair and see no point to anything so they just try to make the best of the time they have.

caseyy 1y ago

You can buy a PC with Linux off the shelf in some countries. In practice, it's an open secret that the machines are for people who don't want to pay for a Windows license but will use Windows anyway.