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I absolutely despise comments like these, and you only see them on HN. It's like saying great architects aren't great, it's the construction workers who should

I absolutely despise comments like these, and you only see them on HN. It's like saying great architects aren't great, it's the construction workers who should get the credit.

bcrosby95 1y ago
HN isn't special here. There's conflict between people whose job is to make something look pretty and people whose job is to make it work in every industry.
- davidivadavid 1y ago
  Repeat after me: design isn't about making things pretty.
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    Certain people who call themselves designers could do with learning this. Bring back brutalism, I say!
  - asadotzler 1y ago
    For Ive, it often was. Ever thinner MBPs? Why, if not for appearance given the weight didn't change. No ports on PRO computers? Why, if they didn't bother his aesthetic sensibilities. Charging your mouse disables its use because the ports on the bottom? Why if not to hide the port for looks? He spent most of his time at Apple trying to make things pretty. Your comment may be true for "design" in the abstract, but as someone who spent plenty of time studying design and architecture, let me assure you, many of the people I studied with who are now industry veterans never cared about much more than aesthetics, even in architecture where engineering and building science are major factors. Again, sure, theoretically true for "design" but hardly true for Ive.
    - bobxmax 1y ago
      Just because you don't know the reasons doesn't mean there weren't any.
      - deleted 1y ago
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  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    Alternatively: Form follows function. Or: Good design takes into account the medium. Many forms of saying it or a very similar statement. If only these words transformed into something beneficial in the minds of flying air castle designers.
huijzer 1y ago
> I absolutely despise comments like these, and you only see them on HN. Unfortunately the progressives have been pushing the downplaying of powerful people quite hard for a long time under the guise of equality, so it’s more widespread than just HN. Even more unfortunately, equality is also one of the main ideas of communism. It’s how the government can get rid of dissenters and thus move power to itself. That’s why Marc Andreessen in the Lex Fridman podcast talked about how the government told them that they could give up their startup because it was already decided which companies would be allowed to operate. That’s not capitalism. And Marc knows it that’s why he felt he had to speak up.
brulard 1y ago
Comments like yours that completely dismiss any questioning of established "legends" seems more despicable to me. Can't we have an open discussion and a range of opinions?
buzzerbetrayed 1y ago
Ive wasn't great. Apple has only improved since he left. There, does it help if I say it more directly?
- bobxmax 1y ago
  It's great that you know better than Steve Jobs. You have impressive self-esteem.
systemvoltage 1y ago
I agree somewhat, you can feel the tension on HN with respect to labor vs capital. Which is funny because the entire premise of YC is to infuse capital and get a huge leverage over bootstrappers.
- Karrot_Kream 1y ago
  It's a pretty common turn of phrase on "lefty" (Western, English, very online, progressive) parts of the internet. I've always found it silly because it takes some pretty interesting nuanced problems (how do you give credit to folks who executed Ive's vision, many who probably boldly innovated to create what they did? How do you realistically situate Ive's flaws given his aura?) and wrings the nuance out of it by polarizing the readers (you're either with labor or you're with capital, pick your side of the picket line!) But then these days lefty and righty parts of the Western English-language internet are all polarized and beating on common enemies is part of their conversational language. I think for a while HN was small enough that it resisted this polarization but at its current size there's no escaping it.
danlitt 1y ago
> It's like saying great architects aren't great No, you made that up. It's like saying great architects are not the sole cause of the things they make. > it's the construction workers who should get the credit Don't you think the construction workers should get some of the credit?
- csallen 1y ago
  You're most likely to get credit by being unique and irreplaceable. In other words, if the work would not have happened without you. If someone else could have been easily hired to do the work you contributed, and if in that case the work would have been largely indistinguishable from the work you did, then you're essentially fungible. IMO you still deserve credit. And in fact you still get credit. But that credit comes in the form of monetary reward and (hopefully) recognition from your team and peers, rather than in the form of fame. All of which… seems sensible to me? Hard to imagine it working otherwise. Interestingly, the movie industry has normalized "end credits" which play after a movie ends, and which lists literally everyone involved, which is quite cool. But the effect is still the same, the people up top get 99.99% of the credit. (Ofc the "system" is imperfect, and fame/credit can be gamed by good marketers. But it's also not a "system" that any one party invented, it's just sort of an organic economy of attention at work.)
  - danlitt 1y ago
    I am not sure what you're trying to say here. I agree that the existing situation is the most likely one. So what? I am simply saying that even though it is the "obvious thing", it is unfair and unkind. Those two things are compatible, in fact they are the usual arrangement of things! > Hard to imagine it working otherwise. No it isn't! It's very easy to imagine crediting people in a different ratio than we happen to do now. You are seeing what it looks like - people mythologise their heroes, and then other people come in and say "they didn't do it all, you know". People are literally doing it, in front of you, in this thread. How can it be hard to imagine?
    - csallen 1y ago
doo_daa 1y ago
In between great architects and construction workers there are structural engineers who have to work out how to turn the pretty designs into actual, workable plans. Those are the guys who should get most of the credit.

I absolutely despise comments like these, and you only see them on HN. It's like saying great architects aren't great, it's the construction workers who should get the credit.

bcrosby95 1y ago

HN isn't special here. There's conflict between people whose job is to make something look pretty and people whose job is to make it work in every industry.

davidivadavid 1y ago
Repeat after me: design isn't about making things pretty.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  Certain people who call themselves designers could do with learning this. Bring back brutalism, I say!
- asadotzler 1y ago
  For Ive, it often was. Ever thinner MBPs? Why, if not for appearance given the weight didn't change. No ports on PRO computers? Why, if they didn't bother his aesthetic sensibilities. Charging your mouse disables its use because the ports on the bottom? Why if not to hide the port for looks? He spent most of his time at Apple trying to make things pretty. Your comment may be true for "design" in the abstract, but as someone who spent plenty of time studying design and architecture, let me assure you, many of the people I studied with who are now industry veterans never cared about much more than aesthetics, even in architecture where engineering and building science are major factors. Again, sure, theoretically true for "design" but hardly true for Ive.
  - bobxmax 1y ago
    Just because you don't know the reasons doesn't mean there weren't any.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  Alternatively: Form follows function. Or: Good design takes into account the medium. Many forms of saying it or a very similar statement. If only these words transformed into something beneficial in the minds of flying air castle designers.

huijzer 1y ago

> I absolutely despise comments like these, and you only see them on HN. Unfortunately the progressives have been pushing the downplaying of powerful people quite hard for a long time under the guise of equality, so it’s more widespread than just HN. Even more unfortunately, equality is also one of the main ideas of communism. It’s how the government can get rid of dissenters and thus move power to itself. That’s why Marc Andreessen in the Lex Fridman podcast talked about how the government told them that they could give up their startup because it was already decided which companies would be allowed to operate. That’s not capitalism. And Marc knows it that’s why he felt he had to speak up.

brulard 1y ago

Comments like yours that completely dismiss any questioning of established "legends" seems more despicable to me. Can't we have an open discussion and a range of opinions?

buzzerbetrayed 1y ago

Ive wasn't great. Apple has only improved since he left. There, does it help if I say it more directly?

bobxmax 1y ago
It's great that you know better than Steve Jobs. You have impressive self-esteem.

systemvoltage 1y ago

I agree somewhat, you can feel the tension on HN with respect to labor vs capital. Which is funny because the entire premise of YC is to infuse capital and get a huge leverage over bootstrappers.

Karrot_Kream 1y ago
It's a pretty common turn of phrase on "lefty" (Western, English, very online, progressive) parts of the internet. I've always found it silly because it takes some pretty interesting nuanced problems (how do you give credit to folks who executed Ive's vision, many who probably boldly innovated to create what they did? How do you realistically situate Ive's flaws given his aura?) and wrings the nuance out of it by polarizing the readers (you're either with labor or you're with capital, pick your side of the picket line!) But then these days lefty and righty parts of the Western English-language internet are all polarized and beating on common enemies is part of their conversational language. I think for a while HN was small enough that it resisted this polarization but at its current size there's no escaping it.

danlitt 1y ago

> It's like saying great architects aren't great No, you made that up. It's like saying great architects are not the sole cause of the things they make. > it's the construction workers who should get the credit Don't you think the construction workers should get some of the credit?

csallen 1y ago
You're most likely to get credit by being unique and irreplaceable. In other words, if the work would not have happened without you. If someone else could have been easily hired to do the work you contributed, and if in that case the work would have been largely indistinguishable from the work you did, then you're essentially fungible. IMO you still deserve credit. And in fact you still get credit. But that credit comes in the form of monetary reward and (hopefully) recognition from your team and peers, rather than in the form of fame. All of which… seems sensible to me? Hard to imagine it working otherwise. Interestingly, the movie industry has normalized "end credits" which play after a movie ends, and which lists literally everyone involved, which is quite cool. But the effect is still the same, the people up top get 99.99% of the credit. (Ofc the "system" is imperfect, and fame/credit can be gamed by good marketers. But it's also not a "system" that any one party invented, it's just sort of an organic economy of attention at work.)
- danlitt 1y ago
  I am not sure what you're trying to say here. I agree that the existing situation is the most likely one. So what? I am simply saying that even though it is the "obvious thing", it is unfair and unkind. Those two things are compatible, in fact they are the usual arrangement of things! > Hard to imagine it working otherwise. No it isn't! It's very easy to imagine crediting people in a different ratio than we happen to do now. You are seeing what it looks like - people mythologise their heroes, and then other people come in and say "they didn't do it all, you know". People are literally doing it, in front of you, in this thread. How can it be hard to imagine?
  - csallen 1y ago

doo_daa 1y ago

In between great architects and construction workers there are structural engineers who have to work out how to turn the pretty designs into actual, workable plans. Those are the guys who should get most of the credit.