5 ms·

> I found three companies and gave them my PG&E usage for the past year (about 16,000 kwh) and got three quotes ranging from ~45 — 55k. Wow these rates are cra

> I found three companies and gave them my PG&E usage for the past year (about 16,000 kwh) and got three quotes ranging from ~45 — 55k. Wow these rates are crazy. A 10kW setup costs you maybe €10.000 all-in here in the Netherlands. What's going on with these rates? Do they already include the ridiculous tarrifs? A new battery setup for a 20kWh LFP battery + 10 kW inverter + installation is €7000 now. And dropping, fast. Assuming batteries and PV come from China, someone in California is making a lot of money or the government is straining the process with bureaucracy costing $30.000 per setup.

slavik81 1y ago
For comparison, my 10 kW solar install completed last week cost 24k CAD (15k EUR). That's just panels, inverters and installation. The incremental cost was likely in part due to the ~160% tariffs on solar panels imposed by the Canadian government, but not all.
- testing22321 1y ago
  Ouch. My 7.8kW system fully installed was 13k CAD ( a bunch was DIY) Had it for a year now. Generated 7.7kWh which is worth $950. Took out natural gas, power bill for the entire year (heat pump, elec hot water) was $1000. Snowy mountain town in a tight valley in BC.
bdcravens 1y ago
Prices were high even during the Biden administration. Markups due to subsidies are a part of it.
- pjc50 1y ago
  Subsidy causing high prices? You're going to have to explain that.
  - isoprophlex 1y ago
    - Subsidy starts: prices drop. - Greed kicks in because capitalism: prices rise again, maybe not back to pre-subsidy levels, but they rise. - Subsidy gets axed: prices rise to above pre-subsidy levels. (Note: I'm personally entirely pro "subsidize things you want more of". But that requires a stable, trustworthy government that plans on longer timescales.)
    - genericresponse 1y ago
      There are two more steps: - Demand drops due to increased price to buyers. - Prices drop so manufacturers can remain profitable.
    - apexalpha 1y ago
      Sounds like a situation where there's not enough competition. the Netherlands had a net-metering subsidiy + good competition + frictionless install and as a result we have 3,5 solar panels per person installed.
      - bdcravens 1y ago
        Or price fixing.
    - robertlagrant 1y ago
      > Greed kicks in because capitalism There were no greedy people before capitalism. Of that we can be sure.
      - komali2 1y ago
        Greed is a Bad attribute in basically every ethical system and religion throughout history. Capitalism, on the contrary, rewards it. The best way to be under capitalism is greedy (sneakily so, if necessary). So yes, it is uniquely new to have a value system that rewards greed.
        1y ago
- jandrese 1y ago
  Costs are also high for solar installers in the US. It is a relatively dangerous job (on par with roofers) which makes health insurance premiums unaffordable. The permitting process is also quite onerous in a great many localities, involving multiple parties (your installer, the HOA, the city, the county, the power company) and multiple inspections. US installers also tend to provide generous warranty plans, 15 years parts and labor is typical, and have to make sure they have the capital to honor them. This is especially a problem as some solar hardware manufacturers have had some serious quality control issues, especially on the inverters, and have resulted in quite a lot more warranty work than was initially expected. The other issue was just plain pent-up demand. Installers could charge what they wanted because there weren't enough of them to go around, even as everybody and their dog started their own installer business. Many of those businesses were poorly run and have since gone under, leaving the homeowners high and dry when the inverter craps out and they're told by every other installer that they will not work on someone else's install and also told by the inverter manufacturer that if they attempt to replace the hardware themselves it will result in their warranty being voided.
deadfoxygrandpa 1y ago
and now you know why america's GDP is so high
pjc50 1y ago
Crazy stuff. Ten years ago I paid £5.5k GBP for a 3.7kW system. Since then I would expect the labour component to have gone up but the panels to have come down. I guess the skilled labour shortage in the US is having a very real effect on prices. Under the subsidy rules for feed-in-tariffs at the time, that had to be done with an MCS approved installer. All work in England would require an approved "Part P" signoff anyway. However it did not require council planning approva, nor grid approval for that size of system.
- ty6853 1y ago
  There's not a shortage of skilled labor so much in US as there is a shortage of people able to go through the racketeering process of getting a contractor license, which also requires being a half-slave to someone with a license for a number of years. It's straight up mercantilist style shake-down to benefit prior entrants. It is easier in US to become an electrical engineer than it is to become a guy who adds a new outlet to a room addition, but that has nothing to do with skill. In fact when I was first hired as an engineer, it was actually someone that wanted an electrician but hired EEs instead because they are cheaper and more readily available. One of the worst is something like installing HVAC stuff. I got an EPA refrigerant license in 2 days of studying and then did my own myself. If I wanted to install it for a profit for someone else, I would have to spend 4 years working for someone else with a license first to get the contractor license! The end result is it legitimately cost like $700 to have a single capacitor replaced on an air conditioner, and in places like Florida if you do it for someone else without years of 'training' you're now a felon.
  - bityard 1y ago
    I always found solar farm engineering intensely interesting and looked seriously into becoming an electrician as a second career as something to "retire into" once I got sick of working in tech. And like you say, it turns out it's not something you can just make a lateral move into, no matter how quickly you can learn and how hard you're willing to study. "Becoming an electrician" is a young person's game.
    - 1y ago
markvdb 1y ago
I see 7k€ for 12kWp, retail, for a diy ground install set for our summer house. That's before 4k€ in subsidies. No net metering, and feedin compensation is capped at 0.02€/kWh. But at 3k€ net, who cares? Even with the low electricity rates here, this makes sense. Even for a summer house!
- bradfa 1y ago
  In my town in NY state USA, they require a stamped engineering drawing for a ground mount system and it has to be rated for wind and snow load. Most of the ground mounts which come with stamped drawings have run about $1/W total cost which will meet my local needs for a set of panels in the 5kW to 20kW size range. This cost includes concrete, all support structure, and the racking that the panels attach to. This cost does not include panels, wiring, nor inverter. If you're able to get a 12kW rated full system, including racking, panels, and inverter for the equivalent of $1/W that's an amazing deal! I wish prices here were like that.
KaiserPro 1y ago
Batteries are dropping fast in price, but for the USA, they might be going up because of tariffs. Neatly sidestepping that: I have a powerwall 2 with 5kw panels, which I've had since about 2021. At the time it was the biggest, cheapest, had a grid isolation mode, and could be mounted outside. (I didn't trust tesla back then, and I sure as shit don't now. Moreover, once it catches fire, that shit aint going out anytime soon) It still cost about £7k installed. From about march/april to end of october, we are power sufficient (london, even with rainy days, gas hot water though.) If I were to get a new system, 13kwhr of battery is something like £2k, plus inverter/charger. The panels are dirt cheap, to the point where the scaffolding costs more than the panels. (and the mounts.)
ty6853 1y ago
In USA, as a general off the cuff that may be wrong, DIY prices is generally ~1/3 of contractor price. A $45k quote would correspond roughly to 14k euro of materials.
dbetteridge 1y ago
Similarly in Australia I recently paid about $10k AUD (after subsidies) for 13kw of panels and a 10kw inverter. New subsidies this year for batteries mean I can get a 15kwh battery installed for around 2-3k AUD
gdubs 1y ago
I posted above about the price because when we've gotten quotes – and this is over a year back – they were really high! Not sure what the deal is because the graphs all show the cost of green electricity cratering; but somehow on the residential side of things here in the U.S – even in rural areas with very relaxed restrictions – it's super pricey!

slavik81 1y ago

For comparison, my 10 kW solar install completed last week cost 24k CAD (15k EUR). That's just panels, inverters and installation. The incremental cost was likely in part due to the ~160% tariffs on solar panels imposed by the Canadian government, but not all.

testing22321 1y ago
Ouch. My 7.8kW system fully installed was 13k CAD ( a bunch was DIY) Had it for a year now. Generated 7.7kWh which is worth $950. Took out natural gas, power bill for the entire year (heat pump, elec hot water) was $1000. Snowy mountain town in a tight valley in BC.

bdcravens 1y ago

Prices were high even during the Biden administration. Markups due to subsidies are a part of it.

pjc50 1y ago
Subsidy causing high prices? You're going to have to explain that.
- isoprophlex 1y ago
  - Subsidy starts: prices drop. - Greed kicks in because capitalism: prices rise again, maybe not back to pre-subsidy levels, but they rise. - Subsidy gets axed: prices rise to above pre-subsidy levels. (Note: I'm personally entirely pro "subsidize things you want more of". But that requires a stable, trustworthy government that plans on longer timescales.)
  - genericresponse 1y ago
    There are two more steps: - Demand drops due to increased price to buyers. - Prices drop so manufacturers can remain profitable.
  - apexalpha 1y ago
    Sounds like a situation where there's not enough competition. the Netherlands had a net-metering subsidiy + good competition + frictionless install and as a result we have 3,5 solar panels per person installed.
    - bdcravens 1y ago
      Or price fixing.
  - robertlagrant 1y ago
    > Greed kicks in because capitalism There were no greedy people before capitalism. Of that we can be sure.
    - komali2 1y ago
      Greed is a Bad attribute in basically every ethical system and religion throughout history. Capitalism, on the contrary, rewards it. The best way to be under capitalism is greedy (sneakily so, if necessary). So yes, it is uniquely new to have a value system that rewards greed.
      - 1y ago
jandrese 1y ago
Costs are also high for solar installers in the US. It is a relatively dangerous job (on par with roofers) which makes health insurance premiums unaffordable. The permitting process is also quite onerous in a great many localities, involving multiple parties (your installer, the HOA, the city, the county, the power company) and multiple inspections. US installers also tend to provide generous warranty plans, 15 years parts and labor is typical, and have to make sure they have the capital to honor them. This is especially a problem as some solar hardware manufacturers have had some serious quality control issues, especially on the inverters, and have resulted in quite a lot more warranty work than was initially expected. The other issue was just plain pent-up demand. Installers could charge what they wanted because there weren't enough of them to go around, even as everybody and their dog started their own installer business. Many of those businesses were poorly run and have since gone under, leaving the homeowners high and dry when the inverter craps out and they're told by every other installer that they will not work on someone else's install and also told by the inverter manufacturer that if they attempt to replace the hardware themselves it will result in their warranty being voided.

deadfoxygrandpa 1y ago

and now you know why america's GDP is so high

pjc50 1y ago

Crazy stuff. Ten years ago I paid £5.5k GBP for a 3.7kW system. Since then I would expect the labour component to have gone up but the panels to have come down. I guess the skilled labour shortage in the US is having a very real effect on prices. Under the subsidy rules for feed-in-tariffs at the time, that had to be done with an MCS approved installer. All work in England would require an approved "Part P" signoff anyway. However it did not require council planning approva, nor grid approval for that size of system.

ty6853 1y ago
There's not a shortage of skilled labor so much in US as there is a shortage of people able to go through the racketeering process of getting a contractor license, which also requires being a half-slave to someone with a license for a number of years. It's straight up mercantilist style shake-down to benefit prior entrants. It is easier in US to become an electrical engineer than it is to become a guy who adds a new outlet to a room addition, but that has nothing to do with skill. In fact when I was first hired as an engineer, it was actually someone that wanted an electrician but hired EEs instead because they are cheaper and more readily available. One of the worst is something like installing HVAC stuff. I got an EPA refrigerant license in 2 days of studying and then did my own myself. If I wanted to install it for a profit for someone else, I would have to spend 4 years working for someone else with a license first to get the contractor license! The end result is it legitimately cost like $700 to have a single capacitor replaced on an air conditioner, and in places like Florida if you do it for someone else without years of 'training' you're now a felon.
- bityard 1y ago
  I always found solar farm engineering intensely interesting and looked seriously into becoming an electrician as a second career as something to "retire into" once I got sick of working in tech. And like you say, it turns out it's not something you can just make a lateral move into, no matter how quickly you can learn and how hard you're willing to study. "Becoming an electrician" is a young person's game.
  - 1y ago

markvdb 1y ago

I see 7k€ for 12kWp, retail, for a diy ground install set for our summer house. That's before 4k€ in subsidies. No net metering, and feedin compensation is capped at 0.02€/kWh. But at 3k€ net, who cares? Even with the low electricity rates here, this makes sense. Even for a summer house!

bradfa 1y ago
In my town in NY state USA, they require a stamped engineering drawing for a ground mount system and it has to be rated for wind and snow load. Most of the ground mounts which come with stamped drawings have run about $1/W total cost which will meet my local needs for a set of panels in the 5kW to 20kW size range. This cost includes concrete, all support structure, and the racking that the panels attach to. This cost does not include panels, wiring, nor inverter. If you're able to get a 12kW rated full system, including racking, panels, and inverter for the equivalent of $1/W that's an amazing deal! I wish prices here were like that.

KaiserPro 1y ago

Batteries are dropping fast in price, but for the USA, they might be going up because of tariffs. Neatly sidestepping that: I have a powerwall 2 with 5kw panels, which I've had since about 2021. At the time it was the biggest, cheapest, had a grid isolation mode, and could be mounted outside. (I didn't trust tesla back then, and I sure as shit don't now. Moreover, once it catches fire, that shit aint going out anytime soon) It still cost about £7k installed. From about march/april to end of october, we are power sufficient (london, even with rainy days, gas hot water though.) If I were to get a new system, 13kwhr of battery is something like £2k, plus inverter/charger. The panels are dirt cheap, to the point where the scaffolding costs more than the panels. (and the mounts.)

ty6853 1y ago

In USA, as a general off the cuff that may be wrong, DIY prices is generally ~1/3 of contractor price. A $45k quote would correspond roughly to 14k euro of materials.

dbetteridge 1y ago

Similarly in Australia I recently paid about $10k AUD (after subsidies) for 13kw of panels and a 10kw inverter. New subsidies this year for batteries mean I can get a 15kwh battery installed for around 2-3k AUD

gdubs 1y ago

I posted above about the price because when we've gotten quotes – and this is over a year back – they were really high! Not sure what the deal is because the graphs all show the cost of green electricity cratering; but somehow on the residential side of things here in the U.S – even in rural areas with very relaxed restrictions – it's super pricey!