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This is so cool! It's funny because open source devs are making Windows better while MS is actively making it worse. If MS removed all telemetry and AI (and re

by pbohun 1y ago

This is so cool! It's funny because open source devs are making Windows better while MS is actively making it worse. If MS removed all telemetry and AI (and restored win10 functions in context menus), I would probably move back to it. I've recently started playing around with Janet, and it's a great language. I think it's inspired by Clojure and Lua, and somehow manages to be better than both (in my opinion).

agentkilo 1y ago
> I think it's inspired by Clojure and Lua, and somehow manages to be better than both This is exactly how I feel about Janet too. I don't think I have enough experience on Clojure or Lua to comment on them, but I got attracted to Janet almost immediately. Working on Jwno also confirms my first impression on Janet: It's really a practical language. The tooling has some room for improvement, but the language itself can get things done - usually fast and easily.
- cfiggers 1y ago
  Agreed on the need for better Janet tooling. I'm trying to be the change I wish to see with Janet LSP[0]. Issues and contributions are welcome! [0] https://GitHub.com/CFiggers/janet-lsp https://GitHub.com/CFiggers/janet-lsp
- pbohun 1y ago
  This is how I feel about Janet too, absolutely practical. So far it's been a breeze to write the little experiments I've done so far.
- sph 1y ago
  How’s the REPL/interactive editing story? I feel weird using a Lisp that is not as interactive as Racket, Scheme or Common Lisp. Running scripts from the REPL ain’t the same thing as C-x C-e an expression on a live program
  - behnamoh 1y ago
    > I feel weird using a Lisp that is not as interactive as Racket, Scheme or Common Lisp I think Racket and Scheme don't belong in there because neither has a REPL as powerful and "interactive" as Common Lisp REPL. They don't support images either (but Janet and CL do).
    - TeMPOraL 1y ago
      There's multiple dimensions you can slice and dice the Lisp family by. Images and REPL experience are two big ones, but they're almost orthogonal.
      - behnamoh 1y ago
        I didn't mean that Racket and Scheme aren't Lisp (they are!). I meant they don't have the images and REPL-driven development of Common Lisp.
    - tmtvl 1y ago
      As a Common Lisper with a Scheme background I'm gonna guess that by the interactivity of the REPL you mean the condition system with restarts? While most Schemes don't really have anything like it, I seem to recall MIT/GNU Scheme having something kinda similar. And I mean, hey, it's got Edwin, so it definitely has interactivity.
      - behnamoh 1y ago
        Yes, I mean the conditions and restarts system in CL. Haven't seen anything like that in Clojure and other Lisps.
        TeMPOraL 1y ago
        Yeah, it's mind-blowing when it clicks, and makes the whole "exceptions vs. return types" discussion look like a quarrel of 3yos in a sand box. Error handling in other languages/runtimes just doesn't feel sufficient from now on. This is, of course, just a part of a larger whole - the fact that your Common Lisp program ships with a compiler it can access and effectively always runs in an edit-and-go debugger. Embracing this fact fully leads to a different workflow of software development. Having done a bit of that, I found plenty of drawbacks of this approach, too - mostly various consequences of breaking the assumption that code that a program is running is the same as the code it was compiled from or that it started with. The aspect that annoyed me the most day-to-day was, basically, that whenever I fixed something on the fly through conditions and restarts and eval-ing code in a REPL, I never had a nice way to go back to that solution and port it to code. It was too easy to forget about a quick fix you did without thinking. I now realized this should be easily fixable with external tooling - i.e. in Emacs/SLIME. What I think they need is a better way of keeping an audit trail. Capturing and persisting as much of the transient interactions you did as possible, letting you revisit them after and easily transfer into code or tests.
qingcharles 1y ago
This is a fantastic replacement for Windows Explorer which is about 10X faster/lighter: https://filepilot.tech/ https://filepilot.tech/ (it's beta so it has a few little annoyances still)
- tveyben 1y ago
  For files - nothing beats TotalCommander for me. As mentioned earlier in the thread, keyboard shortcuts are built-in, not missing or bolted on later…!
deleted 1y ago
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by pbohun 1y ago

agentkilo 1y ago

> I think it's inspired by Clojure and Lua, and somehow manages to be better than both This is exactly how I feel about Janet too. I don't think I have enough experience on Clojure or Lua to comment on them, but I got attracted to Janet almost immediately. Working on Jwno also confirms my first impression on Janet: It's really a practical language. The tooling has some room for improvement, but the language itself can get things done - usually fast and easily.

cfiggers 1y ago
Agreed on the need for better Janet tooling. I'm trying to be the change I wish to see with Janet LSP[0]. Issues and contributions are welcome! [0] https://GitHub.com/CFiggers/janet-lsp https://GitHub.com/CFiggers/janet-lsp
pbohun 1y ago
This is how I feel about Janet too, absolutely practical. So far it's been a breeze to write the little experiments I've done so far.
sph 1y ago
How’s the REPL/interactive editing story? I feel weird using a Lisp that is not as interactive as Racket, Scheme or Common Lisp. Running scripts from the REPL ain’t the same thing as C-x C-e an expression on a live program
- behnamoh 1y ago
  > I feel weird using a Lisp that is not as interactive as Racket, Scheme or Common Lisp I think Racket and Scheme don't belong in there because neither has a REPL as powerful and "interactive" as Common Lisp REPL. They don't support images either (but Janet and CL do).
  - TeMPOraL 1y ago
    There's multiple dimensions you can slice and dice the Lisp family by. Images and REPL experience are two big ones, but they're almost orthogonal.
    - behnamoh 1y ago
      I didn't mean that Racket and Scheme aren't Lisp (they are!). I meant they don't have the images and REPL-driven development of Common Lisp.
  - tmtvl 1y ago
    As a Common Lisper with a Scheme background I'm gonna guess that by the interactivity of the REPL you mean the condition system with restarts? While most Schemes don't really have anything like it, I seem to recall MIT/GNU Scheme having something kinda similar. And I mean, hey, it's got Edwin, so it definitely has interactivity.
    - behnamoh 1y ago
      Yes, I mean the conditions and restarts system in CL. Haven't seen anything like that in Clojure and other Lisps.
      - TeMPOraL 1y ago
        Yeah, it's mind-blowing when it clicks, and makes the whole "exceptions vs. return types" discussion look like a quarrel of 3yos in a sand box. Error handling in other languages/runtimes just doesn't feel sufficient from now on. This is, of course, just a part of a larger whole - the fact that your Common Lisp program ships with a compiler it can access and effectively always runs in an edit-and-go debugger. Embracing this fact fully leads to a different workflow of software development. Having done a bit of that, I found plenty of drawbacks of this approach, too - mostly various consequences of breaking the assumption that code that a program is running is the same as the code it was compiled from or that it started with. The aspect that annoyed me the most day-to-day was, basically, that whenever I fixed something on the fly through conditions and restarts and eval-ing code in a REPL, I never had a nice way to go back to that solution and port it to code. It was too easy to forget about a quick fix you did without thinking. I now realized this should be easily fixable with external tooling - i.e. in Emacs/SLIME. What I think they need is a better way of keeping an audit trail. Capturing and persisting as much of the transient interactions you did as possible, letting you revisit them after and easily transfer into code or tests.

qingcharles 1y ago

This is a fantastic replacement for Windows Explorer which is about 10X faster/lighter: https://filepilot.tech/ https://filepilot.tech/ (it's beta so it has a few little annoyances still)

tveyben 1y ago
For files - nothing beats TotalCommander for me. As mentioned earlier in the thread, keyboard shortcuts are built-in, not missing or bolted on later…!

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]