6 ms·

Fear of foreign invasion is also why the Soviet Union invaded during the Winter War ("Greater Finland" irredentism was a thing, and St Petersburg was militarily

by pydry 1y ago

Fear of foreign invasion is also why the Soviet Union invaded during the Winter War ("Greater Finland" irredentism was a thing, and St Petersburg was militarily exposed). Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. Fear is why the Soviet Union also signed a pact with the Nazis and invaded Ukraine. It's easy to justify anything with fear.

StefanBatory 1y ago
Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. ... or maybe because Fins got invaded by Soviets.
- pydry 1y ago
  They didnt stop being allied to the Nazis after the winter war was over. Fear maintained that alliance. Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. It's fear all the way down. The only difference is the validity of those fears. Obviously your country's enemies' fears were always invalid while your country's allies' fears were always justified.
  - mopsi 1y ago
    > Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. And the fear of Poland made the Nazis invade Poland, right? Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way, but that was far from the truth. Much like Nazis had to stage a Polish attack on German radio station[1] to justify their invasion of Poland, the USSR had to fabricate the shelling of Mainila[2] to justify the invasion of Finland, because neither Poland nor Finland were apparently threatening enough on their own. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila
    - pydry 1y ago
      No. The closest living analog to the Nazis today is our allies in Israel and like the Nazis they arent shy about endless expansionism for the sake of creating lebensraum for their ubermensch. Theyre not very shy about the holocaust theyre committing either. Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. The biggest western geopolitical mistake of the 2020s is assuming that Israel isnt run by Nazis but Russia is. >Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way Every country presents its propaganda in its own way. Pointing that a country that you consider an enemy publishes propaganda without reference to your own serves merely to underscore that accident of birth dictates which flavor of propaganda you believe.
      - oblio 1y ago
        > Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
      - earnestinger 1y ago
        > Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
        pydry 1y ago
        Technically I'd prefer to be living in a newbuild in Mariupol paying taxes to a different government rather than having the Israeli army drop bombs on my head and starving my entire family until we are all dead. Small distinction to you perhaps, but to me it's a bit more than just "technical".
  - oblio 1y ago
    > Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Romania in 1940? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Poland in 1939? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade the Baltics in 1940? Ah, now I remember, the "fear" of not being the premier colonial power.
- euroderf 1y ago
  When speaking to Americans, I explain the wartime co-operation between Finland and Germany as, "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my 'friend', but we can do business."
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    I'd go with "Otherwise they would have attacked us also, and we definitely couldn't afford a war on two fronts."
oblio 1y ago
One is the biggest country on the planet, with 150 million people. The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people. When in doubt, use basic logic. Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US. Also, list of Russian neighbors not threatened or invaded by Russia: Belarus (pushed into a sort of union state) China (too big) Japan (I think) Mongolia (I think) Azerbaijan (I think) List of neighbors threatened or invaded by Russia: Ukraine Georgia Moldova (Transnistria occupied since 1991) Estonia Latvia Lithuania Finland Poland
- pydry 1y ago
  >Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US. Your argument appears to be that your enemy's fear driven by losing 27 million people during an invasion/war of extermination is exactly equivalent to your country's fear of weapons that were imagined solely for the purposes of justifying an invasion. My argument was that it is quite easy to get a domestic population to treat all of the enemy's legitimate fears as utterly irrelevant while treating bullshit domestic fears as existential. In a way I think you helped make this point for me by forgetting about those 27 million deaths.
  - StefanBatory 1y ago
    It's such a mystery why all neighbours of Russia hate Russia and Russians. If only there was a reason for this.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Experience.
    - pydry 1y ago
      I can name about 8 who dont. The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it. It's more of mystery why particular kinds of westerners are especially sanctimonious about Moscow while bending over backwards to excuse nearly identical behavior from the west.
mazurnification 1y ago
No, fear is not why Soviet Union allayed with Nazis. Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was agreement in which Nazis and Soviets divided central/eastern Europe between them. They even had join parade after conquering Poland in Brest (Brześć). And yes, they ware allied.
- pydry 1y ago
  They were fighting Japan at the time, were unable to fight a war on two fronts and Britain had at that point chosen to follow a strategy of appeasement towards the Nazis. And your idea is that they had zero reason to fear invasion from the west? Even though that is precisely what happened just a few years later?
  - mazurnification 1y ago
    First of all this were USSR-Japan skirmishes not war, second they did not have to worry about Japan as was shown by Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of April 1941, third if they were worried about Japan then "spending" army on invasion of Poland, Finland, Baltics, Bessarabia were counter productive, fourthly at the time of Ribentrop Molotov pact Britain ceased following appeasement strategy as shown by declaring war to Germany at 3-rd of September 1939 as fulfillment of security guarantees given to Poland in March of 1939. It is totally ahistoric to pin any actions of USSR on fear or just reaction to external events. If WWII was continuation of WWI (in my and many opinion it was) both Germany and USRR were revanchist powers that wanted to reverse outcome of WWI. Many forgot that Russia later USSR lost WWI badly. Plus Stalin after very, very, bloody consolidation of power in 30ties was ready (in fact it was imperative for regime stability) to start outward aggression/expansion. Furthermore historian believe that Stalin knew that confrontation w/ Germany is inevitable but (more popular opinion) was estimating it will happen one year later at least or (less popular, even fringe opinion) was amassing forces to attack Germany and was cough by Nazis w/ "pants down". Either scenario would be explanation for initial successes of Operation Barbarossa. Fun fact - last train with grain from USSR to Germany crossed border few minutes before start of Operation Barbarossa. In summary - Soviets and Nazis were allies till 1941 - both parties know it was tactical alliance not unlike USSR - GB/USA against Germany and at the very end Japan. Note that after WWII there was cold war between former allies - not unlike like hot war between former alliance parties of Nazis and Soviets. Second fun fact: Orwell's "oceania was always at war with eastasia" from 1984 is direct reference to how alliances were changing during WWII.

by pydry 1y ago

StefanBatory 1y ago

Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. ... or maybe because Fins got invaded by Soviets.

pydry 1y ago
They didnt stop being allied to the Nazis after the winter war was over. Fear maintained that alliance. Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. It's fear all the way down. The only difference is the validity of those fears. Obviously your country's enemies' fears were always invalid while your country's allies' fears were always justified.
- mopsi 1y ago
  > Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. And the fear of Poland made the Nazis invade Poland, right? Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way, but that was far from the truth. Much like Nazis had to stage a Polish attack on German radio station[1] to justify their invasion of Poland, the USSR had to fabricate the shelling of Mainila[2] to justify the invasion of Finland, because neither Poland nor Finland were apparently threatening enough on their own. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila
  - pydry 1y ago
    No. The closest living analog to the Nazis today is our allies in Israel and like the Nazis they arent shy about endless expansionism for the sake of creating lebensraum for their ubermensch. Theyre not very shy about the holocaust theyre committing either. Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. The biggest western geopolitical mistake of the 2020s is assuming that Israel isnt run by Nazis but Russia is. >Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way Every country presents its propaganda in its own way. Pointing that a country that you consider an enemy publishes propaganda without reference to your own serves merely to underscore that accident of birth dictates which flavor of propaganda you believe.
    - oblio 1y ago
      > Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
    - earnestinger 1y ago
      > Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
      - pydry 1y ago
        Technically I'd prefer to be living in a newbuild in Mariupol paying taxes to a different government rather than having the Israeli army drop bombs on my head and starving my entire family until we are all dead. Small distinction to you perhaps, but to me it's a bit more than just "technical".
- oblio 1y ago
  > Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place. Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Romania in 1940? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Poland in 1939? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade the Baltics in 1940? Ah, now I remember, the "fear" of not being the premier colonial power.
euroderf 1y ago
When speaking to Americans, I explain the wartime co-operation between Finland and Germany as, "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my 'friend', but we can do business."
- yencabulator 1y ago
  I'd go with "Otherwise they would have attacked us also, and we definitely couldn't afford a war on two fronts."

oblio 1y ago

One is the biggest country on the planet, with 150 million people. The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people. When in doubt, use basic logic. Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US. Also, list of Russian neighbors not threatened or invaded by Russia: Belarus (pushed into a sort of union state) China (too big) Japan (I think) Mongolia (I think) Azerbaijan (I think) List of neighbors threatened or invaded by Russia: Ukraine Georgia Moldova (Transnistria occupied since 1991) Estonia Latvia Lithuania Finland Poland

pydry 1y ago
>Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US. Your argument appears to be that your enemy's fear driven by losing 27 million people during an invasion/war of extermination is exactly equivalent to your country's fear of weapons that were imagined solely for the purposes of justifying an invasion. My argument was that it is quite easy to get a domestic population to treat all of the enemy's legitimate fears as utterly irrelevant while treating bullshit domestic fears as existential. In a way I think you helped make this point for me by forgetting about those 27 million deaths.
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  It's such a mystery why all neighbours of Russia hate Russia and Russians. If only there was a reason for this.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Experience.
  - pydry 1y ago
    I can name about 8 who dont. The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it. It's more of mystery why particular kinds of westerners are especially sanctimonious about Moscow while bending over backwards to excuse nearly identical behavior from the west.

mazurnification 1y ago

No, fear is not why Soviet Union allayed with Nazis. Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was agreement in which Nazis and Soviets divided central/eastern Europe between them. They even had join parade after conquering Poland in Brest (Brześć). And yes, they ware allied.

pydry 1y ago
They were fighting Japan at the time, were unable to fight a war on two fronts and Britain had at that point chosen to follow a strategy of appeasement towards the Nazis. And your idea is that they had zero reason to fear invasion from the west? Even though that is precisely what happened just a few years later?
- mazurnification 1y ago
  First of all this were USSR-Japan skirmishes not war, second they did not have to worry about Japan as was shown by Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of April 1941, third if they were worried about Japan then "spending" army on invasion of Poland, Finland, Baltics, Bessarabia were counter productive, fourthly at the time of Ribentrop Molotov pact Britain ceased following appeasement strategy as shown by declaring war to Germany at 3-rd of September 1939 as fulfillment of security guarantees given to Poland in March of 1939. It is totally ahistoric to pin any actions of USSR on fear or just reaction to external events. If WWII was continuation of WWI (in my and many opinion it was) both Germany and USRR were revanchist powers that wanted to reverse outcome of WWI. Many forgot that Russia later USSR lost WWI badly. Plus Stalin after very, very, bloody consolidation of power in 30ties was ready (in fact it was imperative for regime stability) to start outward aggression/expansion. Furthermore historian believe that Stalin knew that confrontation w/ Germany is inevitable but (more popular opinion) was estimating it will happen one year later at least or (less popular, even fringe opinion) was amassing forces to attack Germany and was cough by Nazis w/ "pants down". Either scenario would be explanation for initial successes of Operation Barbarossa. Fun fact - last train with grain from USSR to Germany crossed border few minutes before start of Operation Barbarossa. In summary - Soviets and Nazis were allies till 1941 - both parties know it was tactical alliance not unlike USSR - GB/USA against Germany and at the very end Japan. Note that after WWII there was cold war between former allies - not unlike like hot war between former alliance parties of Nazis and Soviets. Second fun fact: Orwell's "oceania was always at war with eastasia" from 1984 is direct reference to how alliances were changing during WWII.