4 ms·

Get a look on the track topology on openrailwaymap: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=62.77483725887553&lon=29.498291015624996&zoom=6 https://www

Get a look on the track topology on openrailwaymap: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=62.77483725887553&lon=29.498291015624996&zoom=6 https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=62.774837258...

jabl 1y ago
That's only the main tracks. There's a huge amount not seen on that map.
- blueflow 1y ago
  Scroll in.
  - jabl 1y ago
    Oh, right you are! I stand corrected. Though I have to say, that's not exactly the best UI. Not sure what the solution is OTOH, it's certainly not useful to clutter up the map when zoomed out either.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
reddalo 1y ago
That's very interesting. I wonder why Spain is different than the rest of Europe, given it's connected by land. It makes more sense for islands such as Ireland to retain their old gauge.
- Maken 1y ago
  Nobody really knows. It was decided back in the XIX century when the rail network was build. The most common answer is that they thought larger locomotives would be required to climb the mountainous terrain in the Peninsula, which was not the case at all. Urban legends say that absolutely nobody in the committee that decided it had any idea about how trains work. Probably it was a protectionist measure to benefit local manufacturers.
  - mbroncano 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend Probably more to do with the fact that the first train in Spain was build in Cuba
    - Maken 1y ago
      But the trains in Cuba used standard gauge. And the early trains in the north of Spain used (and still use) a narrow-gauge. It was when the central government decided to build a nation-wide network that the Iberian-gauge was chosen, making it incompatible with both the pre-existing Spanish railways and other continental European railways, in the infamous "Informe Subercase" [1]. It is the perfect example of design-by-committee, in which no technical reasons are given other than there are wider and narrower gauges, so they choose an arbitrary middle ground. bast copy of the Subercase report I could find: [1] https://www.agrupament.cat/documents/Informe%20Subercase.pdf https://www.agrupament.cat/documents/Informe%20Subercase.pdf
- cladopa 1y ago
  The reason is quite obvious if you know Spain's History. Given that France invaded Spain in 1807, the military made it necessary to have a different gauge from France. Not only that, the train by the coast was also forbidden in some places as a naval bombardment could disrupt communications in case of war. Spain has lots of mountains with a large plateau over 700 meters high and the coast is usually way lower so it makes sense to transport things by the coast.
  - m4rtink 1y ago
    The Hisatsu line[1] in Japan was built through pretty insane terrain to make it protected from coastal attacks after the Russo-Japanese war. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisatsu_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisatsu_Line
- rsynnott 1y ago
  > It makes more sense for islands such as Ireland to retain their old gauge. Ireland's was kind of an accident; it wasn't even a case of retaining an old gauge as such; it's just that a different gauge won, and, being an island, this didn't matter. The first railway in Ireland was built in 1831 and was what's now called standard gauge. There were a bunch of competing companies, using standard gauge, 1600mm, and various other things. It happens that the two that won both used 1600mm rail, and while that first line from 1831 still largely exists, it was ripped up and replaced with 1600mm over a century ago. Britain was exactly the same, except that it happened that standard gauge eventually won and all the other stuff (with the exception of one or two narrow gauge lines, I think) was ultimately replaced or retired. Of course, both being islands, in a way the gauge didn't _really_ matter. It matters more in continental Europe, because you have cross-border lines.
  - Qwertious 1y ago
    Britain is no longer an island - it now has a tunnel connection to France, so as far as rail is concerned, it's a peninsula.
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      Yup, but it's just the one connection; even if there were a gauge difference it could be dealt with.
  - 317070 1y ago
    Ironically, Britain is now an island with an extremely busy train connection to continental Europe. Soon, you might go from London to Köln without switching trains!
  - siruncledrew 1y ago
    Did Britain start out with the same gauge as India? I kinda expected India and Britain to use the same gauge, and was a bit surprised. Also, what's going on in Australia?
    - 1y ago
- aarroyoc 1y ago
  In addition to the other comment, which I agree as I've heard the same, for the most part Spain and Portugal have been operating as if the Iberian Peninsula was an island. The Pyrenees are a big barrier, and in Franco's era the country was very isolated. The same happens with the electricity grid, even though it is connected to France, it has very small capacity.
- anal_reactor 1y ago
  The Iberian Peninsula functioned like an island in many contexts. Yes, it is attached to the rest of Europe, but in order to get there, you need to cross high mountains. Note how few roads and railways cross between Spain and France.
- forty 1y ago
  There are still trains going from France to Spain, the train change gauge before crossing the border (in either Cerbère or Portbou station)
thrdbndndn 1y ago
The legend on this site is a joke. It's almost impossible to see the colors under the numbers, as they're only a few pixels wide: https://i.imgur.com/k8k394D.png https://i.imgur.com/k8k394D.png
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- russianGuy83829 1y ago
  I see it fine when zooming in a bit on mobile
- npteljes 1y ago
  Also barely any contrast between 1520mm and 1524mm, but I'm sure the trains would mind that distinction a lot.
  - onre 1y ago
    Trains don't even notice that. Russian wagons with nominal gauge of 1520 mm are an everyday sight on the Finnish rail network, nominal gauge 1524 mm. And yes, regardless of sanctions. https://vaunut.org/kuva/174390?tag0=24%7CVgobo%7C https://vaunut.org/kuva/174390?tag0=24%7CVgobo%7C
  - jcranmer 1y ago
    Gauge differences less than ~25mm are considered interoperable to some degree. At a 4mm gauge difference, that's basically less than the tolerance for even the most demanding high-speed track.
- shellfishgene 1y ago
  Yes, but the tracks themselves are labeled if you zoom in on the map.
bartread 1y ago
Fascinating map. I was about to ding it for missing all of the Swiss narrow gauge railways (of which there are many), but then I zoomed in a bit more and they all started to appear. Very cool.

jabl 1y ago

That's only the main tracks. There's a huge amount not seen on that map.

blueflow 1y ago
Scroll in.
- jabl 1y ago
  Oh, right you are! I stand corrected. Though I have to say, that's not exactly the best UI. Not sure what the solution is OTOH, it's certainly not useful to clutter up the map when zoomed out either.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

reddalo 1y ago

That's very interesting. I wonder why Spain is different than the rest of Europe, given it's connected by land. It makes more sense for islands such as Ireland to retain their old gauge.

Maken 1y ago
Nobody really knows. It was decided back in the XIX century when the rail network was build. The most common answer is that they thought larger locomotives would be required to climb the mountainous terrain in the Peninsula, which was not the case at all. Urban legends say that absolutely nobody in the committee that decided it had any idea about how trains work. Probably it was a protectionist measure to benefit local manufacturers.
- mbroncano 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend Probably more to do with the fact that the first train in Spain was build in Cuba
  - Maken 1y ago
    But the trains in Cuba used standard gauge. And the early trains in the north of Spain used (and still use) a narrow-gauge. It was when the central government decided to build a nation-wide network that the Iberian-gauge was chosen, making it incompatible with both the pre-existing Spanish railways and other continental European railways, in the infamous "Informe Subercase" [1]. It is the perfect example of design-by-committee, in which no technical reasons are given other than there are wider and narrower gauges, so they choose an arbitrary middle ground. bast copy of the Subercase report I could find: [1] https://www.agrupament.cat/documents/Informe%20Subercase.pdf https://www.agrupament.cat/documents/Informe%20Subercase.pdf
cladopa 1y ago
The reason is quite obvious if you know Spain's History. Given that France invaded Spain in 1807, the military made it necessary to have a different gauge from France. Not only that, the train by the coast was also forbidden in some places as a naval bombardment could disrupt communications in case of war. Spain has lots of mountains with a large plateau over 700 meters high and the coast is usually way lower so it makes sense to transport things by the coast.
- m4rtink 1y ago
  The Hisatsu line[1] in Japan was built through pretty insane terrain to make it protected from coastal attacks after the Russo-Japanese war. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisatsu_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisatsu_Line
rsynnott 1y ago
> It makes more sense for islands such as Ireland to retain their old gauge. Ireland's was kind of an accident; it wasn't even a case of retaining an old gauge as such; it's just that a different gauge won, and, being an island, this didn't matter. The first railway in Ireland was built in 1831 and was what's now called standard gauge. There were a bunch of competing companies, using standard gauge, 1600mm, and various other things. It happens that the two that won both used 1600mm rail, and while that first line from 1831 still largely exists, it was ripped up and replaced with 1600mm over a century ago. Britain was exactly the same, except that it happened that standard gauge eventually won and all the other stuff (with the exception of one or two narrow gauge lines, I think) was ultimately replaced or retired. Of course, both being islands, in a way the gauge didn't _really_ matter. It matters more in continental Europe, because you have cross-border lines.
- Qwertious 1y ago
  Britain is no longer an island - it now has a tunnel connection to France, so as far as rail is concerned, it's a peninsula.
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    Yup, but it's just the one connection; even if there were a gauge difference it could be dealt with.
- 317070 1y ago
  Ironically, Britain is now an island with an extremely busy train connection to continental Europe. Soon, you might go from London to Köln without switching trains!
- siruncledrew 1y ago
  Did Britain start out with the same gauge as India? I kinda expected India and Britain to use the same gauge, and was a bit surprised. Also, what's going on in Australia?
  - 1y ago
aarroyoc 1y ago
In addition to the other comment, which I agree as I've heard the same, for the most part Spain and Portugal have been operating as if the Iberian Peninsula was an island. The Pyrenees are a big barrier, and in Franco's era the country was very isolated. The same happens with the electricity grid, even though it is connected to France, it has very small capacity.
anal_reactor 1y ago
The Iberian Peninsula functioned like an island in many contexts. Yes, it is attached to the rest of Europe, but in order to get there, you need to cross high mountains. Note how few roads and railways cross between Spain and France.
forty 1y ago
There are still trains going from France to Spain, the train change gauge before crossing the border (in either Cerbère or Portbou station)

thrdbndndn 1y ago

The legend on this site is a joke. It's almost impossible to see the colors under the numbers, as they're only a few pixels wide: https://i.imgur.com/k8k394D.png https://i.imgur.com/k8k394D.png

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
russianGuy83829 1y ago
I see it fine when zooming in a bit on mobile
npteljes 1y ago
Also barely any contrast between 1520mm and 1524mm, but I'm sure the trains would mind that distinction a lot.
- onre 1y ago
  Trains don't even notice that. Russian wagons with nominal gauge of 1520 mm are an everyday sight on the Finnish rail network, nominal gauge 1524 mm. And yes, regardless of sanctions. https://vaunut.org/kuva/174390?tag0=24%7CVgobo%7C https://vaunut.org/kuva/174390?tag0=24%7CVgobo%7C
- jcranmer 1y ago
  Gauge differences less than ~25mm are considered interoperable to some degree. At a 4mm gauge difference, that's basically less than the tolerance for even the most demanding high-speed track.
shellfishgene 1y ago
Yes, but the tracks themselves are labeled if you zoom in on the map.

bartread 1y ago

Fascinating map. I was about to ding it for missing all of the Swiss narrow gauge railways (of which there are many), but then I zoomed in a bit more and they all started to appear. Very cool.