3 ms·

I would say the citizens of Europe have greatly benefited from the partnership with the US. I'm not an American by the way. So after the US (and others) fought

by YZF 1y ago

I would say the citizens of Europe have greatly benefited from the partnership with the US. I'm not an American by the way. So after the US (and others) fought for Europe in WW-II. Defended Europe during the cold war (and till today). Took most of the load ($, weapons etc.) in supporting Ukraine against Russia. Now you're going to tell it to f off? And that is somehow in the interest of the citizens? How many American companies have offices in Europe? How many American products are in your life? Hacker News is based where? I would agree the partnership needs to evolve as does everything. But in a world that's looking more and more like China-"The West"-India(?) Europe's place is still in the west. That's likely the best thing for the world and for Europeans. And for Americans. Hopefully also including better partnership with the rest of the world as well. Presidents come and go. Don't get too stuck on Trump.

whatshisface 1y ago
If Europe follows the US out of the west, that's bad for Europe.
ChocolateGod 1y ago
I'm pretty sure Europe has spent more money on Ukraine than the US.
- YZF 1y ago
  https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine 128B "aid to the government of Ukraine" $195B total spending for Ukraine https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america... $158B in total spending $136B financial and budgetary support and in humanitarian and emergency assistance + military assistance It's a bit obfuscated but I think on paper the US is ahead overall. Certainly Ukraine without the US would be much worse off. Likely under Russian control.
int_19h 1y ago
Indeed, don't get so stuck on Trump. We have a long list of potential candidates to replace him who are just as bad or worse. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial deals, of course. But citizens of Europe should have a clear understanding that they cannot expect US to remain friendly to them in the future, even if and when Trump goes away. If you want benefits, you'll have to negotiate from a position of strength, and this means being able to walk away from the table because you don't actually need the deal on it.
- YZF 1y ago
  Remember the anti-French sentiments post 9/11 when France didn't join the coalition? "freedom fries" instead of "french fries"? No? Well you won't remember this either in 10 years. Countries have interests. That has always been the case. Europe's interest in this case is to align with the US. But sure, Europe needs to figure some stuff out.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    I for one remember that very well, and I wasn't even American at the time. Europe's interest is to be allied with the US. But if US isn't interested in that - and long term this now has to be assumed as a definitive possibility - Europe should be prepared to act accordingly.
    - YZF 1y ago
      Out of the first 12 leaders to visit/meet Trump in this presidency half were European (and then we had Canada and Israel in the other half). The EU is the largest trading partner of the US (Just Germany is #5 on its own). The US is still very much part of the west. Anything is a possibility. I get it that there's some drama and people are upset. The US has challenges and Europe also has challenges.

by YZF 1y ago

whatshisface 1y ago

If Europe follows the US out of the west, that's bad for Europe.

ChocolateGod 1y ago

I'm pretty sure Europe has spent more money on Ukraine than the US.

YZF 1y ago
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine 128B "aid to the government of Ukraine" $195B total spending for Ukraine https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america... $158B in total spending $136B financial and budgetary support and in humanitarian and emergency assistance + military assistance It's a bit obfuscated but I think on paper the US is ahead overall. Certainly Ukraine without the US would be much worse off. Likely under Russian control.

int_19h 1y ago

Indeed, don't get so stuck on Trump. We have a long list of potential candidates to replace him who are just as bad or worse. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial deals, of course. But citizens of Europe should have a clear understanding that they cannot expect US to remain friendly to them in the future, even if and when Trump goes away. If you want benefits, you'll have to negotiate from a position of strength, and this means being able to walk away from the table because you don't actually need the deal on it.

YZF 1y ago
Remember the anti-French sentiments post 9/11 when France didn't join the coalition? "freedom fries" instead of "french fries"? No? Well you won't remember this either in 10 years. Countries have interests. That has always been the case. Europe's interest in this case is to align with the US. But sure, Europe needs to figure some stuff out.
- int_19h 1y ago
  I for one remember that very well, and I wasn't even American at the time. Europe's interest is to be allied with the US. But if US isn't interested in that - and long term this now has to be assumed as a definitive possibility - Europe should be prepared to act accordingly.
  - YZF 1y ago
    Out of the first 12 leaders to visit/meet Trump in this presidency half were European (and then we had Canada and Israel in the other half). The EU is the largest trading partner of the US (Just Germany is #5 on its own). The US is still very much part of the west. Anything is a possibility. I get it that there's some drama and people are upset. The US has challenges and Europe also has challenges.