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Because "DEI" is a dog whistle [1] for discrimination. Every DEI program I've witnessed ultimately worked through discriminatory means. Remember, offering a "bo

Because "DEI" is a dog whistle [1] for discrimination. Every DEI program I've witnessed ultimately worked through discriminatory means. Remember, offering a "bonus" for reaching X% of a certain demographic is no different than penalizing employees if they fail to reach the quota. Allocating "extra" headcount that's exclusive to "diverse" candidates is no different than banning non-diverse candidates from a segment of headcount. The nature of dog whistles is that some people use the term in earnest, without the subtext. But in my experience most people enthusiastic about DEI ultimately do condone discrimination in one way or another. 1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics)

wkat4242 1y ago
We don't do any of that. Our DEI program is just about training for hiring managers to recognise bias. Also, DEI is about giving people with special needs the things they require to function. And providing managers insights into the things they might struggle with. We do information packs about LGBT, different religions etc just so managers understand and can accommodate. We have resource networks for managers (and really, all employees) that have questions about such things. We organise awareness events about LGBT and minority topics so employees can learn from each other and create a better understanding. And it works. It's not just about hiring but also creating better awareness for existing employees. We do look at numbers to guage how we're doing but nobody is being penalised. If we have very few minorities compared to the local demographics it just means our trainings are not getting heard properly and we need to improve them. I would go as far as to say that a company that has strict quotas doesn't really care about DEI. They just want a quick fix. This is not how these things work. You're working with people, not numbers. What bothers me the most is that the Trump administration is even trying to force foreign companies like my employer to abandon DEI programs. It's none of their business what we do in the EU. We like what we do and we're not going to change. They cherrypick a few bad examples and pretend everyone works like that.
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- walledstance 1y ago
  Thank you for your perspective. Sometimes I think, in our data filled world, we overestimate numbers even when disparaging something. Refocusing on the people is an important reminder that numbers matter a little less than we think.
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mpalmer 1y ago
Your experience is filtered through your own biases and preferences. There are incompetent people on both sides of the issue. the difference is that one side has correctly identified a problem with how institutions choose people. The other side is screaming bloody murder that there's no problem at all and that we have to stop talking about the obviously inadvertent and innocuous inequities in our society and institutions.
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  Are the policies I've laid out not explicitly discriminatory? You realize that outright denial of employment on the basis of gender was one of the policies I listed. If your strategy is to simply tell people to disbelieve their own lying eyes... good luck with that. Not every inequity is the result of discrimination or bias. Should we strive to have a 50/50 gender split in murder convictions? A quota restricting murder convictions to 50% men would be an equitable policy but an explicitly unequal one as it'd require either men being let off or women being falsely convicted. If DEI was carried through policies like anonymizing resumes and interviews, I'd believe the claims about how DEI is about reducing discrimination. Instead, all the DEI program I've actually seen firsthand have either directly discriminated on th basis of protected class, or incentivize people to discriminate (e.g. bonuses tied to quotas).
  - mpalmer 1y ago
    Yes I did in fact read your comment. Your kneejerk conclusion that I'm gaslighting you notwithstanding, you are presenting your personal observations as representative of some whole truth. I am challenging that. I'm involved in hiring at my company, which is fairly diverse compared to my perception of the average. There are no quotas, only intentional processes that ensure everyone gets a fair shake.
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
      As I said in my first comment, the nature of dog whistles is that some people use it innocently, without invoking the deeper context. > ...only intentional processes that ensure everyone gets a fair shake. Care to elaborate? The overtly discriminatory policies I listed above were supposedly just ensuring everyone gets a fair take. The language of "ensure everyone gets a fair shake," is no different than how my previous employers described our policy to restrict a segment of headcount to one gender. If you're interested in non-anecdotal evidence on tech hiring bias, here's a few studies tracking applicants submitted to companies and universities: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1418878112 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1418878112, the chart with the important data: https://www.pnas.org/cms/10.1073/pnas.1418878112/asset/fc20a04b-ec76-419f-8d45-0e4217b249ad/assets/graphic/pnas.1418878112fig01.jpeg https://www.pnas.org/cms/10.1073/pnas.1418878112/asset/fc20a... Study on sending resumes to SV tech companies: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484, HN discussion on the paperhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644

wkat4242 1y ago

We don't do any of that. Our DEI program is just about training for hiring managers to recognise bias. Also, DEI is about giving people with special needs the things they require to function. And providing managers insights into the things they might struggle with. We do information packs about LGBT, different religions etc just so managers understand and can accommodate. We have resource networks for managers (and really, all employees) that have questions about such things. We organise awareness events about LGBT and minority topics so employees can learn from each other and create a better understanding. And it works. It's not just about hiring but also creating better awareness for existing employees. We do look at numbers to guage how we're doing but nobody is being penalised. If we have very few minorities compared to the local demographics it just means our trainings are not getting heard properly and we need to improve them. I would go as far as to say that a company that has strict quotas doesn't really care about DEI. They just want a quick fix. This is not how these things work. You're working with people, not numbers. What bothers me the most is that the Trump administration is even trying to force foreign companies like my employer to abandon DEI programs. It's none of their business what we do in the EU. We like what we do and we're not going to change. They cherrypick a few bad examples and pretend everyone works like that.

deleted 1y ago
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walledstance 1y ago
Thank you for your perspective. Sometimes I think, in our data filled world, we overestimate numbers even when disparaging something. Refocusing on the people is an important reminder that numbers matter a little less than we think.
deleted 1y ago
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mpalmer 1y ago

Your experience is filtered through your own biases and preferences. There are incompetent people on both sides of the issue. the difference is that one side has correctly identified a problem with how institutions choose people. The other side is screaming bloody murder that there's no problem at all and that we have to stop talking about the obviously inadvertent and innocuous inequities in our society and institutions.

Manuel_D 1y ago
Are the policies I've laid out not explicitly discriminatory? You realize that outright denial of employment on the basis of gender was one of the policies I listed. If your strategy is to simply tell people to disbelieve their own lying eyes... good luck with that. Not every inequity is the result of discrimination or bias. Should we strive to have a 50/50 gender split in murder convictions? A quota restricting murder convictions to 50% men would be an equitable policy but an explicitly unequal one as it'd require either men being let off or women being falsely convicted. If DEI was carried through policies like anonymizing resumes and interviews, I'd believe the claims about how DEI is about reducing discrimination. Instead, all the DEI program I've actually seen firsthand have either directly discriminated on th basis of protected class, or incentivize people to discriminate (e.g. bonuses tied to quotas).
- mpalmer 1y ago
  Yes I did in fact read your comment. Your kneejerk conclusion that I'm gaslighting you notwithstanding, you are presenting your personal observations as representative of some whole truth. I am challenging that. I'm involved in hiring at my company, which is fairly diverse compared to my perception of the average. There are no quotas, only intentional processes that ensure everyone gets a fair shake.
  - Manuel_D 1y ago
    As I said in my first comment, the nature of dog whistles is that some people use it innocently, without invoking the deeper context. > ...only intentional processes that ensure everyone gets a fair shake. Care to elaborate? The overtly discriminatory policies I listed above were supposedly just ensuring everyone gets a fair take. The language of "ensure everyone gets a fair shake," is no different than how my previous employers described our policy to restrict a segment of headcount to one gender. If you're interested in non-anecdotal evidence on tech hiring bias, here's a few studies tracking applicants submitted to companies and universities: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1418878112 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1418878112, the chart with the important data: https://www.pnas.org/cms/10.1073/pnas.1418878112/asset/fc20a04b-ec76-419f-8d45-0e4217b249ad/assets/graphic/pnas.1418878112fig01.jpeg https://www.pnas.org/cms/10.1073/pnas.1418878112/asset/fc20a... Study on sending resumes to SV tech companies: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484, HN discussion on the paperhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644