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> But the point is that it's worth it for society as a whole. Who decided/determined this? You state it as if positive discrimination is a proven social good,

by umvi 1y ago

> But the point is that it's worth it for society as a whole. Who decided/determined this? You state it as if positive discrimination is a proven social good, yet I don't think it's so clear. There's still a ton of debate around it, and different western countries have difference stances on it. To me it still seems like an experiment with unclear/unknown long term value to society.

BobaFloutist 1y ago
If you believe human capabilities tend to follow a bell curve, and if you believe that minorities are statistically disadvantaged compared to their non-minority complement, that would seem to imply minorities are un(der)tapped as a market and as a labor pool. Which would suggest making a point to actively include them in your hiring and marketing funnel and at least slightly biasing those funnels in their favor would just be good business.
- Enginerrrd 1y ago
  Your reasoning is totally sound up until the final clause. The "correct" answer isn't biasing evaluation pipelines, it's ensuring you have proportional representation in the pool of applicants.
  - RHSeeger 1y ago
    > ensuring you have proportional representation in the pool of applicants But you don't in most cases. And a lot of that is because minorities, in general, have a less access to opportunities. By lifting up minorities individually, the goal is to raise them up at a systematic level. And the end goal of _that_ is so that they can/do have proportional representation in the pool of applicants. At which point, the biased treatment to get them there will no longer be necessary. Admittedly, it's debatable as to whether that approach will work; but I haven't seen any other viable options put forth.
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    By funnel I meant everything up to, but not including, the actual evaluation. Personally, I believe in affirmative action, but it's become evident that it's incredibly unpopular, and the Supreme Court has rendered it actively illegal, so my personal opinion is moot and I know when to cede a losing battle. What I was describing is literally the steps you would take if you wanted to ensure you have proportional representation in the pool of applicants.
    - Enginerrrd 1y ago
      That makes sense and sounds consistent with what I was saying. I guess it wasn't clear to me what you meant by "biasing" the funnel. You obviously need to bias your recruitment efforts, and more than slightly if you want proportional representation of applicants, but I believe it's absolutely essential you do NOT bias evaluations, hiring, or promotion of applicants. To do so actively undermines minorities in my opinion by stripping away their credibility by default.

by umvi 1y ago

BobaFloutist 1y ago

If you believe human capabilities tend to follow a bell curve, and if you believe that minorities are statistically disadvantaged compared to their non-minority complement, that would seem to imply minorities are un(der)tapped as a market and as a labor pool. Which would suggest making a point to actively include them in your hiring and marketing funnel and at least slightly biasing those funnels in their favor would just be good business.

Enginerrrd 1y ago
Your reasoning is totally sound up until the final clause. The "correct" answer isn't biasing evaluation pipelines, it's ensuring you have proportional representation in the pool of applicants.
- RHSeeger 1y ago
  > ensuring you have proportional representation in the pool of applicants But you don't in most cases. And a lot of that is because minorities, in general, have a less access to opportunities. By lifting up minorities individually, the goal is to raise them up at a systematic level. And the end goal of _that_ is so that they can/do have proportional representation in the pool of applicants. At which point, the biased treatment to get them there will no longer be necessary. Admittedly, it's debatable as to whether that approach will work; but I haven't seen any other viable options put forth.
- BobaFloutist 1y ago
  By funnel I meant everything up to, but not including, the actual evaluation. Personally, I believe in affirmative action, but it's become evident that it's incredibly unpopular, and the Supreme Court has rendered it actively illegal, so my personal opinion is moot and I know when to cede a losing battle. What I was describing is literally the steps you would take if you wanted to ensure you have proportional representation in the pool of applicants.
  - Enginerrrd 1y ago
    That makes sense and sounds consistent with what I was saying. I guess it wasn't clear to me what you meant by "biasing" the funnel. You obviously need to bias your recruitment efforts, and more than slightly if you want proportional representation of applicants, but I believe it's absolutely essential you do NOT bias evaluations, hiring, or promotion of applicants. To do so actively undermines minorities in my opinion by stripping away their credibility by default.