4 ms·

No one said Europe owned the ICC, just that Europe has to start to be more and more independent of the US, in the interest of its citizens.

SllX 1y ago
There is always an argument for that from each country’s, treaty organization’s, and corporation’s perspective: what are we relying on and what laws is it subject to? That cuts across both sides of the Atlantic. All I’m doing though is pointing out that no European institutions were harmed by this result, and I’ll even add to that that generally the American sanctions regime is often a benefit to our allies; and this type of sanctioning is something we have usually done in concert with our European allies. What’s different this time is that it’s targeting an ICC prosecutor rather than people who are also on the EU’s hit list, namely Putin’s cronies.
YZF 1y ago
I would say the citizens of Europe have greatly benefited from the partnership with the US. I'm not an American by the way. So after the US (and others) fought for Europe in WW-II. Defended Europe during the cold war (and till today). Took most of the load ($, weapons etc.) in supporting Ukraine against Russia. Now you're going to tell it to f off? And that is somehow in the interest of the citizens? How many American companies have offices in Europe? How many American products are in your life? Hacker News is based where? I would agree the partnership needs to evolve as does everything. But in a world that's looking more and more like China-"The West"-India(?) Europe's place is still in the west. That's likely the best thing for the world and for Europeans. And for Americans. Hopefully also including better partnership with the rest of the world as well. Presidents come and go. Don't get too stuck on Trump.
- whatshisface 1y ago
  If Europe follows the US out of the west, that's bad for Europe.
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  I'm pretty sure Europe has spent more money on Ukraine than the US.
  - YZF 1y ago
    https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine 128B "aid to the government of Ukraine" $195B total spending for Ukraine https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america... $158B in total spending $136B financial and budgetary support and in humanitarian and emergency assistance + military assistance It's a bit obfuscated but I think on paper the US is ahead overall. Certainly Ukraine without the US would be much worse off. Likely under Russian control.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Indeed, don't get so stuck on Trump. We have a long list of potential candidates to replace him who are just as bad or worse. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial deals, of course. But citizens of Europe should have a clear understanding that they cannot expect US to remain friendly to them in the future, even if and when Trump goes away. If you want benefits, you'll have to negotiate from a position of strength, and this means being able to walk away from the table because you don't actually need the deal on it.
  - YZF 1y ago
    Remember the anti-French sentiments post 9/11 when France didn't join the coalition? "freedom fries" instead of "french fries"? No? Well you won't remember this either in 10 years. Countries have interests. That has always been the case. Europe's interest in this case is to align with the US. But sure, Europe needs to figure some stuff out.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      I for one remember that very well, and I wasn't even American at the time. Europe's interest is to be allied with the US. But if US isn't interested in that - and long term this now has to be assumed as a definitive possibility - Europe should be prepared to act accordingly.
      - YZF 1y ago
        Out of the first 12 leaders to visit/meet Trump in this presidency half were European (and then we had Canada and Israel in the other half). The EU is the largest trading partner of the US (Just Germany is #5 on its own). The US is still very much part of the west. Anything is a possibility. I get it that there's some drama and people are upset. The US has challenges and Europe also has challenges.
DrNosferatu 1y ago
You know what? European Democracies should start a, new, NATO-like military Alliance on their own, but without Trump's America. (and without the notorious US-made military equipment kill-switches) And while we're at it, this time will be different: Instead of the membership criteria being anti-soviet communism, as in NATO, it should be effective Liberal Democracy - and - Freedom from Exceptionalist Exemptions, namely from the International Rule of Law. So, to be part, 1. Compulsory International Criminal Court membership and compliance - hence no exceptionalistic US, no exceptionalistic Israel - and now, no Orbanic Hungary. 2. No "Illiberal Democracies": say, for example, a composite of a minimum 0.67 score on the WJP Rule of Law Index and others: therefore no Orbanic Hungary, and no illiberal others like it. Poland, Slovakia, Italy: time to make some hard choices if you want in. 3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion. Not one more new military equipment purchase from the US, (and dispreference for other non-qualifying nations procurement). Member nations should use their - substantial - industrial capacity to equip themselves with indigenous military materiel. Hey, it would be actually great for the economy! Initially European scope, but bridges to a broader global scope (or even a secondary sister-Alliance) with open-ended partnerships with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and yes: Taiwan. US and/or Israel want to join, if a more Democratic future selves? Simple: fully join the ICC, and meet the Alliance's full criteria as every other member. Same applies for prospective new members. Sweden shows how principled positions can be maintained while building serious defense capabilities. Now multiply that model by Europe's combined industrial and technological base. We just need the political will to execute - instead of rolling over and wagging our tail to bullies.
- tguvot 1y ago
  Speed with which multiple EU countries revoke their signature on Ottawa Convention and now on Convention on Cluster Munitions shows exactly how much morals hold when the house is on fire.

SllX 1y ago

There is always an argument for that from each country’s, treaty organization’s, and corporation’s perspective: what are we relying on and what laws is it subject to? That cuts across both sides of the Atlantic. All I’m doing though is pointing out that no European institutions were harmed by this result, and I’ll even add to that that generally the American sanctions regime is often a benefit to our allies; and this type of sanctioning is something we have usually done in concert with our European allies. What’s different this time is that it’s targeting an ICC prosecutor rather than people who are also on the EU’s hit list, namely Putin’s cronies.

YZF 1y ago

I would say the citizens of Europe have greatly benefited from the partnership with the US. I'm not an American by the way. So after the US (and others) fought for Europe in WW-II. Defended Europe during the cold war (and till today). Took most of the load ($, weapons etc.) in supporting Ukraine against Russia. Now you're going to tell it to f off? And that is somehow in the interest of the citizens? How many American companies have offices in Europe? How many American products are in your life? Hacker News is based where? I would agree the partnership needs to evolve as does everything. But in a world that's looking more and more like China-"The West"-India(?) Europe's place is still in the west. That's likely the best thing for the world and for Europeans. And for Americans. Hopefully also including better partnership with the rest of the world as well. Presidents come and go. Don't get too stuck on Trump.

whatshisface 1y ago
If Europe follows the US out of the west, that's bad for Europe.
ChocolateGod 1y ago
I'm pretty sure Europe has spent more money on Ukraine than the US.
- YZF 1y ago
  https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine 128B "aid to the government of Ukraine" $195B total spending for Ukraine https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america... $158B in total spending $136B financial and budgetary support and in humanitarian and emergency assistance + military assistance It's a bit obfuscated but I think on paper the US is ahead overall. Certainly Ukraine without the US would be much worse off. Likely under Russian control.
int_19h 1y ago
Indeed, don't get so stuck on Trump. We have a long list of potential candidates to replace him who are just as bad or worse. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial deals, of course. But citizens of Europe should have a clear understanding that they cannot expect US to remain friendly to them in the future, even if and when Trump goes away. If you want benefits, you'll have to negotiate from a position of strength, and this means being able to walk away from the table because you don't actually need the deal on it.
- YZF 1y ago
  Remember the anti-French sentiments post 9/11 when France didn't join the coalition? "freedom fries" instead of "french fries"? No? Well you won't remember this either in 10 years. Countries have interests. That has always been the case. Europe's interest in this case is to align with the US. But sure, Europe needs to figure some stuff out.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    I for one remember that very well, and I wasn't even American at the time. Europe's interest is to be allied with the US. But if US isn't interested in that - and long term this now has to be assumed as a definitive possibility - Europe should be prepared to act accordingly.
    - YZF 1y ago
      Out of the first 12 leaders to visit/meet Trump in this presidency half were European (and then we had Canada and Israel in the other half). The EU is the largest trading partner of the US (Just Germany is #5 on its own). The US is still very much part of the west. Anything is a possibility. I get it that there's some drama and people are upset. The US has challenges and Europe also has challenges.

DrNosferatu 1y ago

You know what? European Democracies should start a, new, NATO-like military Alliance on their own, but without Trump's America. (and without the notorious US-made military equipment kill-switches) And while we're at it, this time will be different: Instead of the membership criteria being anti-soviet communism, as in NATO, it should be effective Liberal Democracy - and - Freedom from Exceptionalist Exemptions, namely from the International Rule of Law. So, to be part, 1. Compulsory International Criminal Court membership and compliance - hence no exceptionalistic US, no exceptionalistic Israel - and now, no Orbanic Hungary. 2. No "Illiberal Democracies": say, for example, a composite of a minimum 0.67 score on the WJP Rule of Law Index and others: therefore no Orbanic Hungary, and no illiberal others like it. Poland, Slovakia, Italy: time to make some hard choices if you want in. 3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion. Not one more new military equipment purchase from the US, (and dispreference for other non-qualifying nations procurement). Member nations should use their - substantial - industrial capacity to equip themselves with indigenous military materiel. Hey, it would be actually great for the economy! Initially European scope, but bridges to a broader global scope (or even a secondary sister-Alliance) with open-ended partnerships with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and yes: Taiwan. US and/or Israel want to join, if a more Democratic future selves? Simple: fully join the ICC, and meet the Alliance's full criteria as every other member. Same applies for prospective new members. Sweden shows how principled positions can be maintained while building serious defense capabilities. Now multiply that model by Europe's combined industrial and technological base. We just need the political will to execute - instead of rolling over and wagging our tail to bullies.

tguvot 1y ago
Speed with which multiple EU countries revoke their signature on Ottawa Convention and now on Convention on Cluster Munitions shows exactly how much morals hold when the house is on fire.