3 ms·

You can’t? Just install UTM for a full VM one-click install (easier than wsl /install and two reboots) or any number of docker thingies that people build for th

by tgma 1y ago

You can’t? Just install UTM for a full VM one-click install (easier than wsl /install and two reboots) or any number of docker thingies that people build for the Mac.

frollogaston 1y ago
Hm, never heard of that one but I'll try it.
- tgma 1y ago
  https://mac.getutm.app/ https://mac.getutm.app/
ozgrakkurt 1y ago
This is very far from smooth, it has network issues, runs muuch slower than native etc. etc. Would be just better to have linux but doesn’t seem realistic how everything works so flawlessly in macos, touchpad, sound etc.
- mindwok 1y ago
  I’ve done this numerous times and it’s never been onerous and everything has worked flawlessly. It’s also not slower than native if you’re running an ARM build of Linux.
  - frollogaston 1y ago
    Er wait, when I said Linux, I meant a common x86 distro. I'll try it anyway though.
    - tgma 1y ago
      Almost all relevant x86 distros have arm64 builds these days as well and once you enable Rosetta 2 you will be able to run x86 binaries/docker containers on them, but the Linux kernel remains arm64. Otherwise, it is just using qemu interpreter to emulate x86 in software.
      - frollogaston 1y ago
        Biggest thing is that I don't want to get stuck rebuilding software from source because the package maintainer didn't make an arm64 binary. Rosetta2 on my host OS enables the guest OS to run x86 binaries... that's interesting, I'll try it too, but I'd be surprised if it's truly hassle-free. At the very least would have to reconfigure apt-get to allow x86 binaries. Then idk about dynamically-linked x86 libs (I'm not a Linux expert).
        tgma 1y ago
        I'm sure you can make apt work in a multilib world, but the mainstream way it generally works well is you stick to distro's arm64 packages (pretty comprehensive; arm64 is not some esoteric arch) for the most part and they work just great and you use/build docker containers that might be x86 and that is supported by `--platform` switch once you get basic stuff configured. I suspect if your use case is more esoteric, it's likely not going to be worth the time. I'd just SSH to a second linux box. To correct your statement on one key thing: Rosetta2 in this case is not running on host OS. Apple provides a Linux version of Rosetta 2 which runs inside your VM and is registered as a binfmt interpreter for ELF x86 binaries[1]. This is similar to how `wine` or `java` or `mono` can execute their respective binaries directly. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running-intel-binaries-in-linux-vms-with-rosetta https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
        frollogaston 1y ago
        Thanks, that makes more sense. I do have an RPi which is also arm64 (still different from Apple's), and the mainstream things work ok at least.
      - frollogaston 1y ago
        Oh, but Apple Silicon isn't the same kind of arm64 those builds target, right? Like, I don't see how you can run any kind of Ubuntu on an AS Mac without emulation. Unlike Asahi which is actually made for Apple Silicon.
- tgma 1y ago
  I don't know why your experience was poor. At least under Apple Virtualization for ARM64 Linux, the performance has been great. Perhaps as the other commenter suspects you might be running x86 Linux under software emulation? In any case, I've run bare metal Asahi on M1 (and M1 Pro) and they work amazingly well too. Installation was quite straightforward too.
  - ozgrakkurt 1y ago
    Maybe just skill issue, but I was using it for developing a large rust project. Compilation time was way worse than native and memory was a problem since I was allocating half of total to the vm and I only had 16 gb. Also the network would cut out and I would have to restart the vm periodically. Just using a linux laptop is way better but then I don’t have a nice touchpad, excellent battery life etc.
    - tgma 1y ago
      Even better is a Mac laptop with a desktop/cloud machine under your desk you can SSH into, which is what I personally do personally. Fast fiber connection with IPv6 and/or Wireguard helps. If you're using VSCode and Zed both have remote editing function over SSH too. Everything has trade-offs. The baseline in this subthread was not bare metal Linux but WSL, which has the same exact issues. It might not give you the full RAM, but it should be smooth and the network should work.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - frollogaston 1y ago
        I'd compare WSL to my older Intel MBP's setup, a VirtualBox VM. Both are subject to the RAM splitting and lacking GPU support, but at least things are simple and predictable on the CPU side, no emulation.
        tgma 1y ago

by tgma 1y ago

You can’t? Just install UTM for a full VM one-click install (easier than wsl /install and two reboots) or any number of docker thingies that people build for the Mac.

frollogaston 1y ago

Hm, never heard of that one but I'll try it.

tgma 1y ago
https://mac.getutm.app/ https://mac.getutm.app/

ozgrakkurt 1y ago

This is very far from smooth, it has network issues, runs muuch slower than native etc. etc. Would be just better to have linux but doesn’t seem realistic how everything works so flawlessly in macos, touchpad, sound etc.

mindwok 1y ago
I’ve done this numerous times and it’s never been onerous and everything has worked flawlessly. It’s also not slower than native if you’re running an ARM build of Linux.
- frollogaston 1y ago
  Er wait, when I said Linux, I meant a common x86 distro. I'll try it anyway though.
  - tgma 1y ago
    Almost all relevant x86 distros have arm64 builds these days as well and once you enable Rosetta 2 you will be able to run x86 binaries/docker containers on them, but the Linux kernel remains arm64. Otherwise, it is just using qemu interpreter to emulate x86 in software.
    - frollogaston 1y ago
      Biggest thing is that I don't want to get stuck rebuilding software from source because the package maintainer didn't make an arm64 binary. Rosetta2 on my host OS enables the guest OS to run x86 binaries... that's interesting, I'll try it too, but I'd be surprised if it's truly hassle-free. At the very least would have to reconfigure apt-get to allow x86 binaries. Then idk about dynamically-linked x86 libs (I'm not a Linux expert).
      - tgma 1y ago
        I'm sure you can make apt work in a multilib world, but the mainstream way it generally works well is you stick to distro's arm64 packages (pretty comprehensive; arm64 is not some esoteric arch) for the most part and they work just great and you use/build docker containers that might be x86 and that is supported by `--platform` switch once you get basic stuff configured. I suspect if your use case is more esoteric, it's likely not going to be worth the time. I'd just SSH to a second linux box. To correct your statement on one key thing: Rosetta2 in this case is not running on host OS. Apple provides a Linux version of Rosetta 2 which runs inside your VM and is registered as a binfmt interpreter for ELF x86 binaries[1]. This is similar to how `wine` or `java` or `mono` can execute their respective binaries directly. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running-intel-binaries-in-linux-vms-with-rosetta https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
        frollogaston 1y ago
        Thanks, that makes more sense. I do have an RPi which is also arm64 (still different from Apple's), and the mainstream things work ok at least.
    - frollogaston 1y ago
      Oh, but Apple Silicon isn't the same kind of arm64 those builds target, right? Like, I don't see how you can run any kind of Ubuntu on an AS Mac without emulation. Unlike Asahi which is actually made for Apple Silicon.
tgma 1y ago
I don't know why your experience was poor. At least under Apple Virtualization for ARM64 Linux, the performance has been great. Perhaps as the other commenter suspects you might be running x86 Linux under software emulation? In any case, I've run bare metal Asahi on M1 (and M1 Pro) and they work amazingly well too. Installation was quite straightforward too.
- ozgrakkurt 1y ago
  Maybe just skill issue, but I was using it for developing a large rust project. Compilation time was way worse than native and memory was a problem since I was allocating half of total to the vm and I only had 16 gb. Also the network would cut out and I would have to restart the vm periodically. Just using a linux laptop is way better but then I don’t have a nice touchpad, excellent battery life etc.
  - tgma 1y ago
    Even better is a Mac laptop with a desktop/cloud machine under your desk you can SSH into, which is what I personally do personally. Fast fiber connection with IPv6 and/or Wireguard helps. If you're using VSCode and Zed both have remote editing function over SSH too. Everything has trade-offs. The baseline in this subthread was not bare metal Linux but WSL, which has the same exact issues. It might not give you the full RAM, but it should be smooth and the network should work.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - frollogaston 1y ago
      I'd compare WSL to my older Intel MBP's setup, a VirtualBox VM. Both are subject to the RAM splitting and lacking GPU support, but at least things are simple and predictable on the CPU side, no emulation.
      - tgma 1y ago