3 ms·

Rooftop solar in the US is absurldy expensive. The 30% federal subsidies alone are greater than the full buildout cost of utility scale solar. At these prices r

Rooftop solar in the US is absurldy expensive. The 30% federal subsidies alone are greater than the full buildout cost of utility scale solar. At these prices rooftop solar makes no sense. This seems to be more about the US market than rooftop vs utility scale. Australia shows it is possible to install rooftop solar cheaply. Why can't we?

detourdog 1y ago
I find it hard to judge the expense of a solar array. I have purchased 2 in Massachusetts about 8 years apart. The SRECs I have received for the first array I would say roughly covered the costs. The second array seems to be on the same pace. I also benefit from the electricity produced. Last year the second Massachusetts changed the electrical repurchase agreement and I just checked the bill for April. I produced 480 more kWh than used. I ended up with a $58.04 credit. National Grid pays me $.24320141 per kWh. I will be pumping just under 6,000 kWh a month into the gird until October. I don't see solar as expensive I see it as a good value. I will always be buying electricity and it will always be rising in price. I'm happy to have the opportunity to invest to reduce these costs. I agree that the system is not fair...
- laurencerowe 1y ago
  Rooftop solar is great deal for you because you are being paid over the odds for the electricity you produce. At market prices paid by the electricity company the electricity you generate during the day is worth a lot less than the electricity you consume at other times. So net metering is a huge subsidy to you from other electricity bill payers. I don't mind subsidising renewable energy, but as a renter who is not eligible to partake in these deals I would far rather my dollars were spent more efficiently on cheap utility scale systems than expensive rooftop systems.
  - detourdog 1y ago
    No doubt. If it's any consolation the building is a rental and I include the utilities in the rent. The renters get fiber optic internet and flat rate rent/utilities. I'm trying to be as generous as I can.
    - laurencerowe 1y ago
      I certainly wouldn’t want to blame individuals for making the most of the subsidies available. It just seems such an inefficient system.
conradev 1y ago
I studied this for a year fellowship, and there are lots of problems, but problems with permitting and interconnection are pretty unique in the US. NREL, NFPA, UL, and Tesla got together and developed SolarAPP (https://gosolarapp.org https://gosolarapp.org). It enables instant online permitting for standard installations, and California passed a law mandating its adoption. It's also sales. Solar is currently sold by salespeople and they need to be paid. The small solar companies contract out to the larger solar companies for crap rates because top of funnel is very hard for them. There is a YC company going after that opportunity: https://projectsolar.com/ https://projectsolar.com/ Software providers like Aurora (https://aurorasolar.com https://aurorasolar.com) are used for making proposals, but they sell software to solar installers rather than vertically integrating and going after it themselves. Tesla sells online, but the online experience ends after you pay and they try to sell you too much solar. Everything, including design, is subcontracted out in my understanding. Sunrun is a great option even though you don't own the panels. PPAs are more popular at the moment because interest rates are so high.
- utsolartemp 1y ago
  > There is a YC company going after that opportunity: https://projectsolar.com/ https://projectsolar.com/ I have experience in the Utah solar industry. I stopped recommending Project Solar to people after seeing so many bad experiences. You can find stories of good Project Solar installs, but your odds of having a good experience with them seems to be going down year by year. You can see a sampling of complaints by searching Reddit and other solar forums: https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/1cheio5/do_your_research_before_working_with_project_solar/ https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/1cheio5/do_your_rese... Years ago I recommended Project Solar to a lot of people. Now I almost feel obligated to warn people whenever the topic comes up as penance for all of the trouble I caused multiple people by recommending them. I hope they can clean up their business, but for now I'd approach with a lot of caution.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > There is a YC company going after that opportunity: https://projectsolar.com/ https://projectsolar.com/ Are you thinking of a different company? I can't find anything online linking Project Solar to Y Combinator.
Analemma_ 1y ago
It's mostly shortage of labor: if you're willing to do the research on your setup, buy the equipment yourself, and just hand instructions+gear to a contractor, you save a bunch of money. If you're willing/able to do the installation yourself, you save even more. This isn't specifically a rooftop solar thing, the entire construction industry in America has been bottlenecked on labor for years. You can insert your own personal hobbyhorse here about why that is (immigration, undervaluing trades, etc.), but whatever it is it sure is a headwind on solar migration.
Aurornis 1y ago
> Rooftop solar in the US is absurldy expensive. The US solar market is extremely weird. For many installs, a majority of the money could go to dealer fees (financing charges) and sales commissions. The solar sales industry operates on a "redline" model. The redline is a $/W minimum rate that goes to the equipment and installer, but also to the manager, dealer, district manager, regional manager, etc. The sales people are essentially free to pitch any price they want and they collect the difference. The sales people basically make up the price on the spot based on what they think they can convince you to buy. Many companies have tried direct sales options where customers buy direct and skip the sales commission. They still get hit with large "dealer fees" which go to the financing companies unless they're self-paying though. It is possible to do a full self-pay, direct-buy install with certain companies, but there's a problem: The redline commission model is so lucrative that a lot of the direct-sell companies give up and switch to redline commission models to make bank while they can. There's also a shortage of installers, who get drawn to the high commission companies by their higher rates. I think eventually the market will settle out. For now, there is so much demand from consumers who aren't price sensitive and so many expiring subsidies to create a false sense of urgency that the high priced companies can continue operating.

detourdog 1y ago

I find it hard to judge the expense of a solar array. I have purchased 2 in Massachusetts about 8 years apart. The SRECs I have received for the first array I would say roughly covered the costs. The second array seems to be on the same pace. I also benefit from the electricity produced. Last year the second Massachusetts changed the electrical repurchase agreement and I just checked the bill for April. I produced 480 more kWh than used. I ended up with a $58.04 credit. National Grid pays me $.24320141 per kWh. I will be pumping just under 6,000 kWh a month into the gird until October. I don't see solar as expensive I see it as a good value. I will always be buying electricity and it will always be rising in price. I'm happy to have the opportunity to invest to reduce these costs. I agree that the system is not fair...

laurencerowe 1y ago
Rooftop solar is great deal for you because you are being paid over the odds for the electricity you produce. At market prices paid by the electricity company the electricity you generate during the day is worth a lot less than the electricity you consume at other times. So net metering is a huge subsidy to you from other electricity bill payers. I don't mind subsidising renewable energy, but as a renter who is not eligible to partake in these deals I would far rather my dollars were spent more efficiently on cheap utility scale systems than expensive rooftop systems.
- detourdog 1y ago
  No doubt. If it's any consolation the building is a rental and I include the utilities in the rent. The renters get fiber optic internet and flat rate rent/utilities. I'm trying to be as generous as I can.
  - laurencerowe 1y ago
    I certainly wouldn’t want to blame individuals for making the most of the subsidies available. It just seems such an inefficient system.

conradev 1y ago

I studied this for a year fellowship, and there are lots of problems, but problems with permitting and interconnection are pretty unique in the US. NREL, NFPA, UL, and Tesla got together and developed SolarAPP (https://gosolarapp.org https://gosolarapp.org). It enables instant online permitting for standard installations, and California passed a law mandating its adoption. It's also sales. Solar is currently sold by salespeople and they need to be paid. The small solar companies contract out to the larger solar companies for crap rates because top of funnel is very hard for them. There is a YC company going after that opportunity: https://projectsolar.com/ https://projectsolar.com/ Software providers like Aurora (https://aurorasolar.com https://aurorasolar.com) are used for making proposals, but they sell software to solar installers rather than vertically integrating and going after it themselves. Tesla sells online, but the online experience ends after you pay and they try to sell you too much solar. Everything, including design, is subcontracted out in my understanding. Sunrun is a great option even though you don't own the panels. PPAs are more popular at the moment because interest rates are so high.

utsolartemp 1y ago
> There is a YC company going after that opportunity: https://projectsolar.com/ https://projectsolar.com/ I have experience in the Utah solar industry. I stopped recommending Project Solar to people after seeing so many bad experiences. You can find stories of good Project Solar installs, but your odds of having a good experience with them seems to be going down year by year. You can see a sampling of complaints by searching Reddit and other solar forums: https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/1cheio5/do_your_research_before_working_with_project_solar/ https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/1cheio5/do_your_rese... Years ago I recommended Project Solar to a lot of people. Now I almost feel obligated to warn people whenever the topic comes up as penance for all of the trouble I caused multiple people by recommending them. I hope they can clean up their business, but for now I'd approach with a lot of caution.
Aurornis 1y ago
> There is a YC company going after that opportunity: https://projectsolar.com/ https://projectsolar.com/ Are you thinking of a different company? I can't find anything online linking Project Solar to Y Combinator.

Analemma_ 1y ago

It's mostly shortage of labor: if you're willing to do the research on your setup, buy the equipment yourself, and just hand instructions+gear to a contractor, you save a bunch of money. If you're willing/able to do the installation yourself, you save even more. This isn't specifically a rooftop solar thing, the entire construction industry in America has been bottlenecked on labor for years. You can insert your own personal hobbyhorse here about why that is (immigration, undervaluing trades, etc.), but whatever it is it sure is a headwind on solar migration.

Aurornis 1y ago

> Rooftop solar in the US is absurldy expensive. The US solar market is extremely weird. For many installs, a majority of the money could go to dealer fees (financing charges) and sales commissions. The solar sales industry operates on a "redline" model. The redline is a $/W minimum rate that goes to the equipment and installer, but also to the manager, dealer, district manager, regional manager, etc. The sales people are essentially free to pitch any price they want and they collect the difference. The sales people basically make up the price on the spot based on what they think they can convince you to buy. Many companies have tried direct sales options where customers buy direct and skip the sales commission. They still get hit with large "dealer fees" which go to the financing companies unless they're self-paying though. It is possible to do a full self-pay, direct-buy install with certain companies, but there's a problem: The redline commission model is so lucrative that a lot of the direct-sell companies give up and switch to redline commission models to make bank while they can. There's also a shortage of installers, who get drawn to the high commission companies by their higher rates. I think eventually the market will settle out. For now, there is so much demand from consumers who aren't price sensitive and so many expiring subsidies to create a false sense of urgency that the high priced companies can continue operating.