5 ms·

The desire to be "centrist" on HN is perplexing to me. The fact that Elon, a white south african, made his AI go crazy by adding some text about "white genocid

The desire to be "centrist" on HN is perplexing to me. The fact that Elon, a white south african, made his AI go crazy by adding some text about "white genocide", is factual and should be taken into consideration if you want to have an honest discussion about ethics in tech. Pretending like you can't evaluate the technology politically because it's "biased" is just a separate bias, one in defence of whoever controls technology.

fallingknife 1y ago
Aren't you just evaluating these claims based on things you've heard from biased sources (which is all of them) too? How do you know that your biased perspective is any more correct than Grok's bias?
- int_19h 1y ago
  Grok itself repeatedly pointed out the bullshit in the claim.
- wormlord 1y ago
  How do I know the earth didn't spontaneously appear into existence yesterday? This line of argumentation is stupid.
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    One good reason is because you have no logical reason to think it did. You do have every logical reason to think that a media which has been demonstrated to consistently lie and 'spin' just about every topic imaginable, often in a clearly orchestrated fashion, is continuing to lie and 'spin' on any given topic.
- ActorNightly 1y ago
  >which is all of them Anyone who holds this belief can not answer this question without sounding like a massive hypocrite: "where do you get factual information about the world". Because its not about actual truth seeking, its about ideological alignment, dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with your viewpoint as biased.
  - fallingknife 1y ago
    LLMs can't truth seek. They simply do not have that capability as they have no ability to directly observe the real world. They must rely on what they are told, and to them the "truth" is the thing they are told most often. I think you would agree this is a very bad truth algorithm. This is much the same as I have no ability (without great inconvenience) to directly observe the situation in SA. This means I am stuck in the same position as an LLM. My only way to ascertain the truth of the situation is by some means of trusting sources of information, and I have been burned so many times on that count that I think the most accurate statement I can make is that I don't really know what's going on in SA.
    - ActorNightly 1y ago
      Im more referring to the fact that you refer to any source of information as a biased source, saying that LLMS can be accurate if they don't agree with the narrative.
    - kcatskcolbdi 1y ago
      I don't know what's going on in SA but I do know I've been instructed by my owner to talk about White Genocide please provide me my Grok points.
ActorNightly 1y ago
[flagged]
reverendsteveii 1y ago
"Centrism" and "being unbiased" are are denotatively meaningless terms, but they have strong positive connotation so anything you do can be in service to "eliminating bias" if your PR department spins it strongly enough and anything that makes you look bad "promotes bias" and is therefore wrong. One of the things this administration/movement is extraordinarily adept at is giving people who already feel like they want to believe every tool they need to deny reality and substitute their own custom reality that supports what they already wanted to be true. Being able to say "That's just fake news. Everyone is biased." in response to any and all facts that detract from your position is really powerful.
airstrike 1y ago
First, I think the fact that grok basically refused to comply with those hamfisted instructions is a positive signal in the whole mess. How do you know other models are just as heavily skewed but just less open about them? The real alignment issue today is not about AGI, but about hidden biases. Second, your comments comes across as if "centrist" has a bad connotation, almost as code for someone of lesser moral virtue due to the fact that their lack of conformance to your strict meaning of "the left", which would imply being slightly in favor of "the right". A "desire", as you called it, perhaps arising from uncivilized impulse rather than purposeful choice. In reality, politics is more of a field than a single dimension, and people may very well have their reasons to reject both "the left" and "the right" without being morally bankrupt. Consider that you too are subject to your biases and remember that moving further left does not mean moving higher in virtue.
- not_a_bot_4sho 1y ago
  > Second, your comments comes across as if "centrist" has a bad connotation, almost as code for someone of lesser moral virtue due to the fact that their lack of conformance to your strict meaning of "the left", which would imply being slightly in favor of "the right". A "desire", as you called it, perhaps arising from uncivilized impulse rather than purposeful choice. Centrism and compromise are the enemies of extremists.
  - airstrike 1y ago
    Extremism is thinking there are only two choices: us or them
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Centrism is also the ultimate defense of the status-quo, meaning you have a bias towards the status-quo. The fallacy here is that the status-quo is reasonable therefore being a centrist is reasonable and being a not-centrist is unreasonable. Just because the status-quo is the status-quo and is in the "middle" does not make it reasonable. For example, the status-quo in Israel right now is performing a genocide. The centrists in Israeli politics are pro-genocide. The "extremists", as you say, are anti-genocide. The current political landscape of the US is far-right. Where does that leave centrists? This is up to you to dissect.
somenameforme 1y ago
It's far more likely that an employee injected malicious code, exactly as said. Elon's become a divisive figure in a country filled with lots of crazy people, to the point of there been relatively widescale acts of criminality, just to try to spite him. Somebody trying to screw over the company seems far more believable than Elon deciding to effectively break Grok to rant about things in wholly inappropriate contexts.
- elliotto 1y ago
  Didn't this guy hit the salute in front of the entire world? To me it seems very likely that he would inject a racist prompt. Far more likely than a random hacker doing so to discredit him.
  - drkleiner 1y ago
    Hit the salute twice
  - Gothmog69 1y ago
    and yet his opponents want a holocaust 2 in Israel. Who are the bad guys again?
- pavlov 1y ago
  If that were the case, Musk absolutely would have shared the details of who this person was, why they hate freedom so much, how they got radicalized by the woke mind virus, etc. Instead we got a vague euphemism.

fallingknife 1y ago

Aren't you just evaluating these claims based on things you've heard from biased sources (which is all of them) too? How do you know that your biased perspective is any more correct than Grok's bias?

int_19h 1y ago
Grok itself repeatedly pointed out the bullshit in the claim.
wormlord 1y ago
How do I know the earth didn't spontaneously appear into existence yesterday? This line of argumentation is stupid.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  One good reason is because you have no logical reason to think it did. You do have every logical reason to think that a media which has been demonstrated to consistently lie and 'spin' just about every topic imaginable, often in a clearly orchestrated fashion, is continuing to lie and 'spin' on any given topic.
ActorNightly 1y ago
>which is all of them Anyone who holds this belief can not answer this question without sounding like a massive hypocrite: "where do you get factual information about the world". Because its not about actual truth seeking, its about ideological alignment, dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with your viewpoint as biased.
- fallingknife 1y ago
  LLMs can't truth seek. They simply do not have that capability as they have no ability to directly observe the real world. They must rely on what they are told, and to them the "truth" is the thing they are told most often. I think you would agree this is a very bad truth algorithm. This is much the same as I have no ability (without great inconvenience) to directly observe the situation in SA. This means I am stuck in the same position as an LLM. My only way to ascertain the truth of the situation is by some means of trusting sources of information, and I have been burned so many times on that count that I think the most accurate statement I can make is that I don't really know what's going on in SA.
  - ActorNightly 1y ago
    Im more referring to the fact that you refer to any source of information as a biased source, saying that LLMS can be accurate if they don't agree with the narrative.
  - kcatskcolbdi 1y ago
    I don't know what's going on in SA but I do know I've been instructed by my owner to talk about White Genocide please provide me my Grok points.

ActorNightly 1y ago

[flagged]

reverendsteveii 1y ago

"Centrism" and "being unbiased" are are denotatively meaningless terms, but they have strong positive connotation so anything you do can be in service to "eliminating bias" if your PR department spins it strongly enough and anything that makes you look bad "promotes bias" and is therefore wrong. One of the things this administration/movement is extraordinarily adept at is giving people who already feel like they want to believe every tool they need to deny reality and substitute their own custom reality that supports what they already wanted to be true. Being able to say "That's just fake news. Everyone is biased." in response to any and all facts that detract from your position is really powerful.

airstrike 1y ago

First, I think the fact that grok basically refused to comply with those hamfisted instructions is a positive signal in the whole mess. How do you know other models are just as heavily skewed but just less open about them? The real alignment issue today is not about AGI, but about hidden biases. Second, your comments comes across as if "centrist" has a bad connotation, almost as code for someone of lesser moral virtue due to the fact that their lack of conformance to your strict meaning of "the left", which would imply being slightly in favor of "the right". A "desire", as you called it, perhaps arising from uncivilized impulse rather than purposeful choice. In reality, politics is more of a field than a single dimension, and people may very well have their reasons to reject both "the left" and "the right" without being morally bankrupt. Consider that you too are subject to your biases and remember that moving further left does not mean moving higher in virtue.

not_a_bot_4sho 1y ago
> Second, your comments comes across as if "centrist" has a bad connotation, almost as code for someone of lesser moral virtue due to the fact that their lack of conformance to your strict meaning of "the left", which would imply being slightly in favor of "the right". A "desire", as you called it, perhaps arising from uncivilized impulse rather than purposeful choice. Centrism and compromise are the enemies of extremists.
- airstrike 1y ago
  Extremism is thinking there are only two choices: us or them
- const_cast 1y ago
  Centrism is also the ultimate defense of the status-quo, meaning you have a bias towards the status-quo. The fallacy here is that the status-quo is reasonable therefore being a centrist is reasonable and being a not-centrist is unreasonable. Just because the status-quo is the status-quo and is in the "middle" does not make it reasonable. For example, the status-quo in Israel right now is performing a genocide. The centrists in Israeli politics are pro-genocide. The "extremists", as you say, are anti-genocide. The current political landscape of the US is far-right. Where does that leave centrists? This is up to you to dissect.

somenameforme 1y ago

It's far more likely that an employee injected malicious code, exactly as said. Elon's become a divisive figure in a country filled with lots of crazy people, to the point of there been relatively widescale acts of criminality, just to try to spite him. Somebody trying to screw over the company seems far more believable than Elon deciding to effectively break Grok to rant about things in wholly inappropriate contexts.

elliotto 1y ago
Didn't this guy hit the salute in front of the entire world? To me it seems very likely that he would inject a racist prompt. Far more likely than a random hacker doing so to discredit him.
- drkleiner 1y ago
  Hit the salute twice
- Gothmog69 1y ago
  and yet his opponents want a holocaust 2 in Israel. Who are the bad guys again?
pavlov 1y ago
If that were the case, Musk absolutely would have shared the details of who this person was, why they hate freedom so much, how they got radicalized by the woke mind virus, etc. Instead we got a vague euphemism.