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Running a Linux VM on Windows is nicer than just booting into Linux? That's quite a take. Windows is so user-hostile these days that I feel bad for those who ha

Running a Linux VM on Windows is nicer than just booting into Linux? That's quite a take. Windows is so user-hostile these days that I feel bad for those who have to deal with it. Calling it delightful must be symptomatic of some sort of Stockholm syndrome.

PaulHoule 1y ago
Maybe it is both-sidesism but the motd you get by default on Ubuntu these days is as bad as any OS. (“Ubuntu Advantage” sounds about as good as https://prospect.org/health/2024-01-12-great-medicare-advantage-marketing-scam/ https://prospect.org/health/2024-01-12-great-medicare-advant...) At least the nags in Windows look like modern web-based UI (so far that ‘use Electron’ seems to be the post-Win 8 answer to ‘how to make Windows apps’) in contrast to MacOS which drove my wife crazy with nag dialogs that look like a 1999 refresh of what modal dialogs looked like on the classic Mac in 1984.
alex_smart 1y ago
> symptomatic of some sort of Stockholm syndrome I have since moved to macbooks for the hardware, but until not too long ago WSL was my linux "distro" of choice because I didn't want to spend time configuring my computer to make basic things work like suspend/wake on lid down/up, battery life, hardware acceleration for video playback on the browser, display scaling on external monitor and so on.
- encom 1y ago
  You need new reasons to hate Linux, because all those issues were solved a while ago.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - frollogaston 1y ago
    There's no way, especially if you include Bluetooth in that list.
  - alex_smart 1y ago
    I don't need new reasons to hate Linux. Like I said, I have moved to macbooks as my personal computing device because of the better hardware. > solved a while ago Can not be the case because I was facing these issues less than a couple of years ago. I was responding to the "Stockholm syndrome" comment specifically because there are a number of hardware and software problems (e.g. https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbnails-in-the-file-picker https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbna...) with using linux as a desktop operating system that linux users have to find their way around, so I found the comment rather full of irony. PS: I already know that the file-picker issue has been fixed. That does not take away from the fact that it was in fact broken for decades. It is only meant as an example.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      > Can not be the case because I was facing these issues less than a couple of years ago Just like with Mac and Windows, you choose the supported hardware, and everything is flawless.
      - frollogaston 1y ago
        If there's some set of fully Linux-capable laptops out there, it's a small subset of the Windows-capable ones. And it's not clear what the Linux ones are. Like, our dept ordered officially Linux-supported Thinkpads for whoever wanted them, and turns out they still have unsolved Bluetooth audio problems. Those people use wired headphones now.
        trelane 1y ago
        This is true. Until people pay reliably for Linux hardware instead of Windows, that will always be the case, just as it is for Mac. Just like Mac, though, the key is to buy from a vendor that ships hardware designed for Linux, with Linux preinstalled, and with support for Linux. Unlike, Mac, though, Linux won't block you from installing it on Windows hardware, so it's not as obvious that you're on your own.
      - alex_smart 1y ago
  - JoshTriplett 1y ago
    There is a reason why 1) people whose main environment is Linux feel (correctly) that these problems have been solved a long time ago, and 2) people whose main environment is not Linux but who try Linux occasionally feel (correctly) that these problems still occasionally crop up. People whose main environment is Linux intentionally buy hardware that works flawlessly with Linux. People who try Linux occasionally do it on whatever hardware they have, which still almost always works with Linux, but there are occasional issues with sketchy Windows-only hardware or insufficiently tested firmware or flaky wifi cards, and that is enough for there to be valid anecdotes in any given comments section with several people saying they tried it and it isn't perfect. Because "perfect" is a very high bar.
    - okanat 1y ago
      > people whose main environment is Linux feel (correctly) that these problems have been solved a long time ago There is also the quiet part to this. People who religiously use Linux and think that it is the best OS that can ever be, don't realize how many little optimizations go into a consumer OS. They use outdated hardware. They use the lower end models of the peripherals (people still recommend 96 DPI screens just for this). They use limited capabilities of that hardware. They don't rely on deeply interactive user interfaces.
      - bongodongobob 1y ago
        Linux is basically everyone's go to for older devices. Windows 10 will run like shit on a 10 year old laptop with 4GB RAM but latest Ubuntu is nice and snappy.
        okanat 1y ago
        I have a 13 year old laptop that runs Windows 10. I cannot run Linux because neither nouveau nor Nvidia drivers support its GPU. It has 8 GiBs of RAM and it works perfectly for light browsing and document editing.
        1y ago
- dismalaf 1y ago
  Who deals with this? All this is fine out of the box on a modern Linux distro.
  - alex_smart 1y ago
    That was certainly not the case ~2 years ago, the last time I installed linux on a laptop. It also doesn't appear to be the case even now. I searched for laptops available in my country that fit my budget and for each laptop searched "<laptop name> linux reddit" on google and filtered for results <1 year old. Each laptop's reports included some or other bug. https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linux_experience_with_hp_envy_x360_2024/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linu... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/lenovo_ideapad_slim_5_gen_9_amd_8845hs_16_inch/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/leno... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_omnibook_ultra_14_ryzen_ai_9_365_a_short_review/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_o... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audio_not_working_lenovo_yoga_7_pro_intel_ultra_7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audi... The laptop with the best reported linux support seemed to be Thinkpad P14s but even there users reported tweaking some config to get fans to run silently and to make the speakers sound acceptable. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_p14s_first_impressions_and_linux_configs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_...
    - dismalaf 1y ago
      > linux Which Linux? Each distro is essentially a different operating system.
      - alex_smart 1y ago
        I thought you said everything should work seamlessly on any modern distro.
        dismalaf 1y ago
frollogaston 1y ago
If for some reason I could never use a MacBook again, it wouldn't be easy to decide between Windows or Linux as the host OS on a laptop. Do I want something that's intentionally user-hostile or something that's unintentionally broken a lot? I'd at least try Linux cause I abhor Microsoft, but idk if it'd work out.
CoolCold 1y ago
> Running a Linux VM on Windows is nicer than just booting into Linux Indeed, it does. Having stable system and not dealing with Linux on Desktop, clear tradoffs (like "just add another 16gb RAM stick in laptop/desktop and you are golden") is great for peace of mind. The average uptimes on my laptops (note for plural) is ~3 weeks, until next Windows Update to be applied. I don't have nostalgia on the days of using Linux on desktop (~2003 student times, ~2008 giving it one more try, ~2015 as required by dayjob) Of course it adds up that I can tell people around me (who are not tech guys often, but smart enough to know basic concepts and be able to run bash scripts provided to them) - "yep, machine with 32GB+ of RAM will work fine, choose any you like" - and it works.
- aeroevan 1y ago
  I'm confused, in what world does running Linux require more RAM than Windows? The suspend/hibernate on laptops isn't that great, but tbh I never had great results on windows either (macos is decent though). And uptimes for desktop systems are similarly just limited by whenever there's a kernel update.
  - CoolCold 1y ago
    I meant overhead you need to spend in RAM to run WSL2
- Loocid 1y ago
  This is the opposite of what I've heard. Most often you hear of people installing Linux on old machines due to it performing better than Windows on low resources.
  - CoolCold 1y ago
    I'm talking about more regular situation when you deal with new hardware- why on earth I'd go with outdated and limiting me T480 when T16gen4 is around the corner. Or ARM based laptops.

PaulHoule 1y ago

Maybe it is both-sidesism but the motd you get by default on Ubuntu these days is as bad as any OS. (“Ubuntu Advantage” sounds about as good as https://prospect.org/health/2024-01-12-great-medicare-advantage-marketing-scam/ https://prospect.org/health/2024-01-12-great-medicare-advant...) At least the nags in Windows look like modern web-based UI (so far that ‘use Electron’ seems to be the post-Win 8 answer to ‘how to make Windows apps’) in contrast to MacOS which drove my wife crazy with nag dialogs that look like a 1999 refresh of what modal dialogs looked like on the classic Mac in 1984.

alex_smart 1y ago

> symptomatic of some sort of Stockholm syndrome I have since moved to macbooks for the hardware, but until not too long ago WSL was my linux "distro" of choice because I didn't want to spend time configuring my computer to make basic things work like suspend/wake on lid down/up, battery life, hardware acceleration for video playback on the browser, display scaling on external monitor and so on.

encom 1y ago
You need new reasons to hate Linux, because all those issues were solved a while ago.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- frollogaston 1y ago
  There's no way, especially if you include Bluetooth in that list.
- alex_smart 1y ago
  I don't need new reasons to hate Linux. Like I said, I have moved to macbooks as my personal computing device because of the better hardware. > solved a while ago Can not be the case because I was facing these issues less than a couple of years ago. I was responding to the "Stockholm syndrome" comment specifically because there are a number of hardware and software problems (e.g. https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbnails-in-the-file-picker https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbna...) with using linux as a desktop operating system that linux users have to find their way around, so I found the comment rather full of irony. PS: I already know that the file-picker issue has been fixed. That does not take away from the fact that it was in fact broken for decades. It is only meant as an example.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    > Can not be the case because I was facing these issues less than a couple of years ago Just like with Mac and Windows, you choose the supported hardware, and everything is flawless.
    - frollogaston 1y ago
      If there's some set of fully Linux-capable laptops out there, it's a small subset of the Windows-capable ones. And it's not clear what the Linux ones are. Like, our dept ordered officially Linux-supported Thinkpads for whoever wanted them, and turns out they still have unsolved Bluetooth audio problems. Those people use wired headphones now.
      - trelane 1y ago
        This is true. Until people pay reliably for Linux hardware instead of Windows, that will always be the case, just as it is for Mac. Just like Mac, though, the key is to buy from a vendor that ships hardware designed for Linux, with Linux preinstalled, and with support for Linux. Unlike, Mac, though, Linux won't block you from installing it on Windows hardware, so it's not as obvious that you're on your own.
    - alex_smart 1y ago
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  There is a reason why 1) people whose main environment is Linux feel (correctly) that these problems have been solved a long time ago, and 2) people whose main environment is not Linux but who try Linux occasionally feel (correctly) that these problems still occasionally crop up. People whose main environment is Linux intentionally buy hardware that works flawlessly with Linux. People who try Linux occasionally do it on whatever hardware they have, which still almost always works with Linux, but there are occasional issues with sketchy Windows-only hardware or insufficiently tested firmware or flaky wifi cards, and that is enough for there to be valid anecdotes in any given comments section with several people saying they tried it and it isn't perfect. Because "perfect" is a very high bar.
  - okanat 1y ago
    > people whose main environment is Linux feel (correctly) that these problems have been solved a long time ago There is also the quiet part to this. People who religiously use Linux and think that it is the best OS that can ever be, don't realize how many little optimizations go into a consumer OS. They use outdated hardware. They use the lower end models of the peripherals (people still recommend 96 DPI screens just for this). They use limited capabilities of that hardware. They don't rely on deeply interactive user interfaces.
    - bongodongobob 1y ago
      Linux is basically everyone's go to for older devices. Windows 10 will run like shit on a 10 year old laptop with 4GB RAM but latest Ubuntu is nice and snappy.
      - okanat 1y ago
        I have a 13 year old laptop that runs Windows 10. I cannot run Linux because neither nouveau nor Nvidia drivers support its GPU. It has 8 GiBs of RAM and it works perfectly for light browsing and document editing.
        1y ago
dismalaf 1y ago
Who deals with this? All this is fine out of the box on a modern Linux distro.
- alex_smart 1y ago
  That was certainly not the case ~2 years ago, the last time I installed linux on a laptop. It also doesn't appear to be the case even now. I searched for laptops available in my country that fit my budget and for each laptop searched "<laptop name> linux reddit" on google and filtered for results <1 year old. Each laptop's reports included some or other bug. https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linux_experience_with_hp_envy_x360_2024/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linu... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/lenovo_ideapad_slim_5_gen_9_amd_8845hs_16_inch/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/leno... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_omnibook_ultra_14_ryzen_ai_9_365_a_short_review/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_o... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audio_not_working_lenovo_yoga_7_pro_intel_ultra_7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audi... The laptop with the best reported linux support seemed to be Thinkpad P14s but even there users reported tweaking some config to get fans to run silently and to make the speakers sound acceptable. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_p14s_first_impressions_and_linux_configs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_...
  - dismalaf 1y ago
    > linux Which Linux? Each distro is essentially a different operating system.
    - alex_smart 1y ago
      I thought you said everything should work seamlessly on any modern distro.
      - dismalaf 1y ago

frollogaston 1y ago

If for some reason I could never use a MacBook again, it wouldn't be easy to decide between Windows or Linux as the host OS on a laptop. Do I want something that's intentionally user-hostile or something that's unintentionally broken a lot? I'd at least try Linux cause I abhor Microsoft, but idk if it'd work out.

CoolCold 1y ago

> Running a Linux VM on Windows is nicer than just booting into Linux Indeed, it does. Having stable system and not dealing with Linux on Desktop, clear tradoffs (like "just add another 16gb RAM stick in laptop/desktop and you are golden") is great for peace of mind. The average uptimes on my laptops (note for plural) is ~3 weeks, until next Windows Update to be applied. I don't have nostalgia on the days of using Linux on desktop (~2003 student times, ~2008 giving it one more try, ~2015 as required by dayjob) Of course it adds up that I can tell people around me (who are not tech guys often, but smart enough to know basic concepts and be able to run bash scripts provided to them) - "yep, machine with 32GB+ of RAM will work fine, choose any you like" - and it works.

aeroevan 1y ago
I'm confused, in what world does running Linux require more RAM than Windows? The suspend/hibernate on laptops isn't that great, but tbh I never had great results on windows either (macos is decent though). And uptimes for desktop systems are similarly just limited by whenever there's a kernel update.
- CoolCold 1y ago
  I meant overhead you need to spend in RAM to run WSL2
Loocid 1y ago
This is the opposite of what I've heard. Most often you hear of people installing Linux on old machines due to it performing better than Windows on low resources.
- CoolCold 1y ago
  I'm talking about more regular situation when you deal with new hardware- why on earth I'd go with outdated and limiting me T480 when T16gen4 is around the corner. Or ARM based laptops.