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>But wouldn't it be rather less extreme to simply push for sustainable cultural values to begin with? Completely change a culture that's developed over hundred

>But wouldn't it be rather less extreme to simply push for sustainable cultural values to begin with? Completely change a culture that's developed over hundreds of years to make life too stressful to raise a family ? The moment people(women) had the agency to opt out they did. >Most Western nations are still fairly close to sustainable levels. >Summary: U.S. population growth is projected to decline, and the population will become much older over time. Preventing these outcomes will require faster immigration by several multiples of its current rate. https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2024/3/22/us-demographic-projections-with-and-without-immigration https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2024/3/22/us-de... Immigration is holding up the populations of many western nations. Honestly it might just be time for a economic system that doesn't demand infinite growth. Who are we to tell a 25 year old to settle down and have 2.1 kids. This is really a triumph of individual freedom over anything else. 100 years ago you'd be 20, pressured to marry someone you don't really like, and expected to have kids even if you'd rather do something else. The current generation is largely saying no. It's not just an economic issue, most negative population growth countries are relatively wealthy. It's a matter of individual autonomy.

somenameforme 1y ago
You're intuition's a bit off on this issue. Here [1] is one poll on American's preferences in terms of fertility, among countless others you can find. They all tell the same tale: Americans want to have children, but aren't. And even those that have children aren't having as many as they want. The overall number that do not want to have children at all (8%) is verging on statistical noise. And the motivation for having a stable, and ideally growing, population isn't about economics - it's about culture. Countries aren't defined by borders, but by the people within those borders. If you simply swap the populations of America and Saudi Arabia they're not going to start acting just fundamentally different. The two countries would begin to rapidly resemble the countries the people came from, even if the old rules and establishment initially remained in place. And Western culture has currently found itself in an unsustainable place which means that if things don't change, it will simply die only to be replaced. And I think that'd be a shame, because while it has its own deep flaws, it's undeniable that Western culture has had an extremely positive overall influence on the world. [1] - https://news.gallup.com/poll/511238/americans-preference-larger-families-highest-1971.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/511238/americans-preference-lar...
- 999900000999 1y ago
  >And Western culture has currently found itself in an unsustainable place which means that if things don't change, it will simply die only to be replaced. And I think that'd be a shame, because while it has its own deep flaws, it's undeniable that Western culture has had an extremely positive overall influence on the world. Your not wrong, but I think your dealing with an overly optimistic view of things. Just because someone says in a poll they want a family doesn't mean they have the means to start one. At 19 my first girlfriend wanted twins, but it would have completely infesible for that to happen. If we want this dream world to happen, it would need to be one where you can graduate highschool, buy a house and support a family. This mythical time has only existed once in American history. Less people are making it. When you can barely eat, getting married and having a family isn't likely. And the decline in marriage rates supports this. >We find that marriage rates among the middle class have declined significantly over the past 40 years and have now fallen below those in the top income quintile. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/middle-class-marriage-is-declining-and-likely-deepening-inequality/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/middle-class-marriage-is-...
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    You're spinning in 180s fast enough to make somebody dizzy. It's clear that what's happening isn't some "triumph of individual liberty". So why is it happening? Economics is often given as a reason, but that's also not supported by data. There is an extremely strong inverse relationship between fertility and income. And the reason for that, as you seemingly were already acknowledging yourself not long ago, is culture. We live in a wasteful culture where people are trained to want new things, and especially expensive things, solely because of advertising and culture. Poor kids with Jordans that they can't tell apart from regular shoes blind, and mid class kids with the $1000 phones that they couldn't tell apart from a free-with-plan one for what they use them for, are the same sort of nonsense. These people are seen as gullible exploitable idiots by the corporations selling them product, and that is how all of society should see them, because it's true. And I think people chase these things under some fantasy that it'll make them happy. But it never does - not beyond the length of time that e.g. you stick to a consistent argument, so they're left chasing carrots forever. Always planning to start that family once they finally catch that carrot. But they never do.

somenameforme 1y ago

You're intuition's a bit off on this issue. Here [1] is one poll on American's preferences in terms of fertility, among countless others you can find. They all tell the same tale: Americans want to have children, but aren't. And even those that have children aren't having as many as they want. The overall number that do not want to have children at all (8%) is verging on statistical noise. And the motivation for having a stable, and ideally growing, population isn't about economics - it's about culture. Countries aren't defined by borders, but by the people within those borders. If you simply swap the populations of America and Saudi Arabia they're not going to start acting just fundamentally different. The two countries would begin to rapidly resemble the countries the people came from, even if the old rules and establishment initially remained in place. And Western culture has currently found itself in an unsustainable place which means that if things don't change, it will simply die only to be replaced. And I think that'd be a shame, because while it has its own deep flaws, it's undeniable that Western culture has had an extremely positive overall influence on the world. [1] - https://news.gallup.com/poll/511238/americans-preference-larger-families-highest-1971.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/511238/americans-preference-lar...

999900000999 1y ago
>And Western culture has currently found itself in an unsustainable place which means that if things don't change, it will simply die only to be replaced. And I think that'd be a shame, because while it has its own deep flaws, it's undeniable that Western culture has had an extremely positive overall influence on the world. Your not wrong, but I think your dealing with an overly optimistic view of things. Just because someone says in a poll they want a family doesn't mean they have the means to start one. At 19 my first girlfriend wanted twins, but it would have completely infesible for that to happen. If we want this dream world to happen, it would need to be one where you can graduate highschool, buy a house and support a family. This mythical time has only existed once in American history. Less people are making it. When you can barely eat, getting married and having a family isn't likely. And the decline in marriage rates supports this. >We find that marriage rates among the middle class have declined significantly over the past 40 years and have now fallen below those in the top income quintile. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/middle-class-marriage-is-declining-and-likely-deepening-inequality/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/middle-class-marriage-is-...
- somenameforme 1y ago
  You're spinning in 180s fast enough to make somebody dizzy. It's clear that what's happening isn't some "triumph of individual liberty". So why is it happening? Economics is often given as a reason, but that's also not supported by data. There is an extremely strong inverse relationship between fertility and income. And the reason for that, as you seemingly were already acknowledging yourself not long ago, is culture. We live in a wasteful culture where people are trained to want new things, and especially expensive things, solely because of advertising and culture. Poor kids with Jordans that they can't tell apart from regular shoes blind, and mid class kids with the $1000 phones that they couldn't tell apart from a free-with-plan one for what they use them for, are the same sort of nonsense. These people are seen as gullible exploitable idiots by the corporations selling them product, and that is how all of society should see them, because it's true. And I think people chase these things under some fantasy that it'll make them happy. But it never does - not beyond the length of time that e.g. you stick to a consistent argument, so they're left chasing carrots forever. Always planning to start that family once they finally catch that carrot. But they never do.