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I really dislike these posts that are clearly written by someone unfamiliar with religion as a topic, and just use “worship” or “religion” as synonyms for “bein

I really dislike these posts that are clearly written by someone unfamiliar with religion as a topic, and just use “worship” or “religion” as synonyms for “being obsessed with something to an irrational degree.” That isn’t an accurate description of the concept of religion, nor is it a synonym of irrational. Religion is probably one of the most complex yet misunderstood areas of study today. Phones are no more worshipped in a religious sense than printed Bibles were worshipped in Gutenberg’s era. They are technological vectors for idea transfer that facilitate ideologies/worldviews/religions, not those things themselves. Being distracted by your phone doesn’t come with an entire metaphysical picture about the nature of life and death, proper social roles, or most of the other things religious systems typically come with. Also - Durkheim is name dropped here, with the incorrect tense (he doesn’t argue, he argued, as he’s been dead for a long time.)

redczar 1y ago
You are trying to fight how people use words and you won’t be successful. Phrases like “religious fervor” and “religiously <did some activity>” etc. are in common usage and refer to things outside of religion. Phones are worshipped in the sense that many people are lost or will panic if they had to do without them for an extended period of time. Using worshipped evokes an image that is apt.
- keiferski 1y ago
  I’m just calling out sloppy thinking and sloppy word choice. And beyond that, the author explicitly made the reference to religion as a concept and to religious sociology by bringing up Durkheim. He made the analogy to actual religion.
  - redczar 1y ago
    Your jihad against how these words are used in common speech will fail.
- BlarfMcFlarf 1y ago
  The meaning of words is central to the meaning of the article. If the meaning of religion is devolved to “very interested in” then the meaning of the article is “people are very interested in their phones” which is a quite boring article. You can’t rely on the gravity of the word religious while also disregarding it.
  - redczar 1y ago
    This is how people use the word now. He religiously did yoga every day. They religiously attended every game. That book became their bible. The phone is now everyone’s idol.
    - keiferski 1y ago
      Again; that would be fine if the post wasn’t explicitly about comparing it to real religion and quoting scholars of religion.
      - redczar 1y ago
        That’s a fair point.
viraptor 1y ago
> he doesn’t argue, he argued, This phrase is so common it's practically correct. Search for "Plato argues" online for example.
- keiferski 1y ago
  Yes you’re right and I hesitated putting that in there, but in the article itself, it’s written in such a way that I found confusing. Especially when the rest of the text doesn’t seem very familiar with the sociology / philosophy of religion. Probably an unnecessary quibble to have, and I shouldn’t have included it.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    I believe it's short for "(in his written works) X argues...". Past tense would indicate that there was a change in his views at some point.
  - bloomingeek 1y ago
    Quibbling is what we humans do. It is both necessary and helpful for fleshing out all kinds of subjects. And I won't mention how fun it is to say. :)
- 90s_dev 1y ago
  > This phrase is so common it's practically correct. In fact, that's how language works. Whatever emerges from organic use is correct language. We the people decide what proper English is, collectively, not a prestigious university or renowned scholar or classic textbook.
  - _Algernon_ 1y ago
    Bet! I’m vibin’ 100% with your feels, fr fr!
    - 90s_dev 1y ago
      Huh? You woulda said this comment also isn't valid English. Contractions, exclamations, shortucts of every kind, are legit. (Though some usuallyo only appear in certain mediums U+1F609.)
AStonesThrow 1y ago
> Religion is probably one of the most complex yet misunderstood areas Well, yes, and as a religious person, I would suggest that the metaphor is more accurate than you think. To the pagans, a god is a supernatural force that demands worship, sacrifice, attention, effort, appeasement. To a Christian, a false idol is something that steals from the worship and sacrifice that is due to the One True God. You can spot a modern American pagan by the deference and attention they give to their false idols. What sort of priority is ceded to our devices that detracts from truly transcendent and holy things in life? When I approach my church I've developed a ritual for taming and shutting down my phone -- yes, a ritual to put it in its place! But most days, the devices and the Internet are taking charge and telling us what we want and what we can do with ourselves. False worship and pagan gods are slavery and bondage for us. The liberation from Egypt is a parable for today. If we cannot break free from our devices and scrolling the Internet, then Pharaoh will take away the straw and make us forage for ourselves. Our labors and the pains of bondage will increase. Perhaps irreligious people are sensitive and defensive when others suggest that they may indeed be religious worshippers of false idols. This is an ancient phenomenon that, it is felt by the irreligious, belongs to the realm of anthropology and archaeology. Religious worship of a graven image -- it can't possibly be something done by a guy on his phone on the street corner! But it is. I assure you, it is real. It is possible to engage the modern world without being trapped in this pagan worship, but it is not necessarily easy. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist” — Charles Baudelaire
- bazoom42 1y ago
  So you are a pagan knowingly worshipping false idols all day, except you turn it off temporarily while attending church?
  - anton-c 1y ago
    Idk about them but I've never prayed to my phone. Pray to God everyday for my family and friends and the world. No matter what stock you put in legitimacy of prayer, certianly a phone isnt a device you'd expect to be able to answer prayers at all. I use my computer not on the internet as my main device so I can't even scroll on there.
pjc50 1y ago
> being obsessed with something to an irrational degree This phrase, nor the key words "obsessed" or "irrational", does not appear in the text. > Being distracted by your phone doesn’t come with an entire metaphysical picture about the nature of life and death, proper social roles, or most of the other things religious systems typically come with. I would argue that, for most people under 40 and quite a lot of people over, if they have questions about those things, they're going to mediate them through the phone. Whether that's from philosophy youtubers, social media, or asking chatgpt. Phone use doesn't feel very spiritual, but what do people do on social media? Moralizing. Preaching. Dogma. Consider the history of "random+interpretation" fortune telling methods, like Tarot and I Ching. For the sorts of questions you might have asked your fortune, people are now asking LLMs. And treating the answer with the same kind of authoritiveness. The section about "algorithm" reminds me of Carl Sagan's phrase "the demon-haunted world". Algorithmic social media is extremely important, but it's not understandable by the public (because the workings are confidential!). So superstition creeps in. This is where things like "unalive" come from: people are avoiding saying "death" or related words because "the algorithm" will bring them bad luck (bans or shadow bans). Another word to bring in: idol. And idolatry.
- ben_w 1y ago
  I think all that only makes phones a communications tool, not religious, nor idolatry. People have been moralising, preaching, dogmatists in the Letters to the Editor since whenever "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" was coined — I don't think that's enough to have made The Daily Mail or The Sunday Times into an idol, nor the newspaper preference into a denomination (even if there's that quote from Yes Minister). But we are busy making Golems and Húsvættir, and you are right that superstition still plagues us.
jfengel 1y ago
About your last point: it's called the "literary present tense" or "historic present tense". It's related to the present tense used in newspaper headlines. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/510247/use-of-present-tense-in-academic-writing https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/510247/use-of-pr... https://style.mla.org/literary-present-tense/ https://style.mla.org/literary-present-tense/ Though I agree that the jargon use of "religion" here is misleading. It is how a sociologist might understand the term, and drawing the connection can lead to some insight, to to say it is religion outside of that academic context sheds no light. It is absolutely not "literally worship" in the etymological sense of "declaring something to be worthy".
Malcolmlisk 1y ago
Talking about something being worshiped as a religion but not talking about how it alienates you, then makes me wonder that he does not understand religion as is, and he does not read a lot about religions. Sometimes, putting long words together doesn't make you right about a topic that you really want to fancy talk about.
nottorp 1y ago
Traditional religion tends to not accept how it's viewed from the outside either. Yes, I'm afraid that some of the techbro's obsessions are indistinguishable from religious worship. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck etc.
nonrandomstring 1y ago
> I really dislike these posts that are clearly written by someone unfamiliar with religion as a topic I wonder how much academic familiarity one really needs to recognise the rather obvious vernacular effects. I've studied religion and mass communication effects somewhat as well as being a practising Christian, and as I see it the word "religion" commonly applies to the orthodoxy and its big, visible impacts that are social and psychological, rather than the personal, spiritual realm of gnostic metaphysical faith. The OP seems right in the sense that the SV technology cargo cult has all the bad mind-narrowing sides of orthodoxy and none of the good. Observe; suspension of critical thinking, credulity, superstition, arcane symbolism, charismatic leaders, secret knowledge, obsessive rituals and tics, insularity, smug self-righteous and strident proselytising, attacking and denigrating "unbelievers", defensiveness, fear of exclusion, dehumanisation of others, mass hysteria.... Digital tech (smartphones plus corporate social media), as presently configured, presses all the same buttons for psychological and societal harm that cults have for millennia. Moreover, it so pitifully fails to offer any positive social benefits, like a sense of real community, shared values, comfort and stability, or certainty. Instead it overlays a shallow and unreal facsimile of those things. "Idolatry" is probably a great way to frame it. Like historical religions it spawns a super-wealthy elite who exploit the confused masses. It has a small cadre of extremely vocal "true believers", disciples and acolytes, who cajole and bully along the enormous middle mass who are actually ambivalent "pretenders", technological agnostics who mostly can't be bothered to argue. They go along to get along, to avoid feeling persecuted ("left behind" - the modern equivalent of Hell). Real religions may span thousands of years and have subtantial continuity, but cult-tech presents a flimsy facade of being "deep, essential, enduring and universal". In reality, any thoughtful computer scientist can tell you, it's a heterogeneous assemblage of the arbitrary or, as Graeber observed, a world we can "remake in any way we choose". Working in cybersecurity, carefully observing genuine attitudes in peoples' unguarded moments - in contrast to their "official/professional" positions - makes me sure that were the entire telecommunications network of the planet to explode tomorrow, other than for food riots as payment and supply chains adjust, most people would have one bad week, shrug, and get on with the next thing. That's to say "it's all a game" but one that we're all very, very invested in trying to preserve... to the extent we're prepared to terrorise others into sharing our worldview to keep it so. Isn't that a sure hallmark of a religion?
cassepipe 1y ago
Relevant Scott Alexander's post : https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/25/is-everything-a-religion/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/25/is-everything-a-religi...

redczar 1y ago

You are trying to fight how people use words and you won’t be successful. Phrases like “religious fervor” and “religiously <did some activity>” etc. are in common usage and refer to things outside of religion. Phones are worshipped in the sense that many people are lost or will panic if they had to do without them for an extended period of time. Using worshipped evokes an image that is apt.

keiferski 1y ago
I’m just calling out sloppy thinking and sloppy word choice. And beyond that, the author explicitly made the reference to religion as a concept and to religious sociology by bringing up Durkheim. He made the analogy to actual religion.
- redczar 1y ago
  Your jihad against how these words are used in common speech will fail.
BlarfMcFlarf 1y ago
The meaning of words is central to the meaning of the article. If the meaning of religion is devolved to “very interested in” then the meaning of the article is “people are very interested in their phones” which is a quite boring article. You can’t rely on the gravity of the word religious while also disregarding it.
- redczar 1y ago
  This is how people use the word now. He religiously did yoga every day. They religiously attended every game. That book became their bible. The phone is now everyone’s idol.
  - keiferski 1y ago
    Again; that would be fine if the post wasn’t explicitly about comparing it to real religion and quoting scholars of religion.
    - redczar 1y ago
      That’s a fair point.

viraptor 1y ago

> he doesn’t argue, he argued, This phrase is so common it's practically correct. Search for "Plato argues" online for example.

keiferski 1y ago
Yes you’re right and I hesitated putting that in there, but in the article itself, it’s written in such a way that I found confusing. Especially when the rest of the text doesn’t seem very familiar with the sociology / philosophy of religion. Probably an unnecessary quibble to have, and I shouldn’t have included it.
- Tade0 1y ago
  I believe it's short for "(in his written works) X argues...". Past tense would indicate that there was a change in his views at some point.
- bloomingeek 1y ago
  Quibbling is what we humans do. It is both necessary and helpful for fleshing out all kinds of subjects. And I won't mention how fun it is to say. :)
90s_dev 1y ago
> This phrase is so common it's practically correct. In fact, that's how language works. Whatever emerges from organic use is correct language. We the people decide what proper English is, collectively, not a prestigious university or renowned scholar or classic textbook.
- _Algernon_ 1y ago
  Bet! I’m vibin’ 100% with your feels, fr fr!
  - 90s_dev 1y ago
    Huh? You woulda said this comment also isn't valid English. Contractions, exclamations, shortucts of every kind, are legit. (Though some usuallyo only appear in certain mediums U+1F609.)

AStonesThrow 1y ago

> Religion is probably one of the most complex yet misunderstood areas Well, yes, and as a religious person, I would suggest that the metaphor is more accurate than you think. To the pagans, a god is a supernatural force that demands worship, sacrifice, attention, effort, appeasement. To a Christian, a false idol is something that steals from the worship and sacrifice that is due to the One True God. You can spot a modern American pagan by the deference and attention they give to their false idols. What sort of priority is ceded to our devices that detracts from truly transcendent and holy things in life? When I approach my church I've developed a ritual for taming and shutting down my phone -- yes, a ritual to put it in its place! But most days, the devices and the Internet are taking charge and telling us what we want and what we can do with ourselves. False worship and pagan gods are slavery and bondage for us. The liberation from Egypt is a parable for today. If we cannot break free from our devices and scrolling the Internet, then Pharaoh will take away the straw and make us forage for ourselves. Our labors and the pains of bondage will increase. Perhaps irreligious people are sensitive and defensive when others suggest that they may indeed be religious worshippers of false idols. This is an ancient phenomenon that, it is felt by the irreligious, belongs to the realm of anthropology and archaeology. Religious worship of a graven image -- it can't possibly be something done by a guy on his phone on the street corner! But it is. I assure you, it is real. It is possible to engage the modern world without being trapped in this pagan worship, but it is not necessarily easy. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist” — Charles Baudelaire

bazoom42 1y ago
So you are a pagan knowingly worshipping false idols all day, except you turn it off temporarily while attending church?
- anton-c 1y ago
  Idk about them but I've never prayed to my phone. Pray to God everyday for my family and friends and the world. No matter what stock you put in legitimacy of prayer, certianly a phone isnt a device you'd expect to be able to answer prayers at all. I use my computer not on the internet as my main device so I can't even scroll on there.

pjc50 1y ago

> being obsessed with something to an irrational degree This phrase, nor the key words "obsessed" or "irrational", does not appear in the text. > Being distracted by your phone doesn’t come with an entire metaphysical picture about the nature of life and death, proper social roles, or most of the other things religious systems typically come with. I would argue that, for most people under 40 and quite a lot of people over, if they have questions about those things, they're going to mediate them through the phone. Whether that's from philosophy youtubers, social media, or asking chatgpt. Phone use doesn't feel very spiritual, but what do people do on social media? Moralizing. Preaching. Dogma. Consider the history of "random+interpretation" fortune telling methods, like Tarot and I Ching. For the sorts of questions you might have asked your fortune, people are now asking LLMs. And treating the answer with the same kind of authoritiveness. The section about "algorithm" reminds me of Carl Sagan's phrase "the demon-haunted world". Algorithmic social media is extremely important, but it's not understandable by the public (because the workings are confidential!). So superstition creeps in. This is where things like "unalive" come from: people are avoiding saying "death" or related words because "the algorithm" will bring them bad luck (bans or shadow bans). Another word to bring in: idol. And idolatry.

ben_w 1y ago
I think all that only makes phones a communications tool, not religious, nor idolatry. People have been moralising, preaching, dogmatists in the Letters to the Editor since whenever "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" was coined — I don't think that's enough to have made The Daily Mail or The Sunday Times into an idol, nor the newspaper preference into a denomination (even if there's that quote from Yes Minister). But we are busy making Golems and Húsvættir, and you are right that superstition still plagues us.

jfengel 1y ago

About your last point: it's called the "literary present tense" or "historic present tense". It's related to the present tense used in newspaper headlines. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/510247/use-of-present-tense-in-academic-writing https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/510247/use-of-pr... https://style.mla.org/literary-present-tense/ https://style.mla.org/literary-present-tense/ Though I agree that the jargon use of "religion" here is misleading. It is how a sociologist might understand the term, and drawing the connection can lead to some insight, to to say it is religion outside of that academic context sheds no light. It is absolutely not "literally worship" in the etymological sense of "declaring something to be worthy".

Malcolmlisk 1y ago

Talking about something being worshiped as a religion but not talking about how it alienates you, then makes me wonder that he does not understand religion as is, and he does not read a lot about religions. Sometimes, putting long words together doesn't make you right about a topic that you really want to fancy talk about.

nottorp 1y ago

Traditional religion tends to not accept how it's viewed from the outside either. Yes, I'm afraid that some of the techbro's obsessions are indistinguishable from religious worship. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck etc.

nonrandomstring 1y ago

> I really dislike these posts that are clearly written by someone unfamiliar with religion as a topic I wonder how much academic familiarity one really needs to recognise the rather obvious vernacular effects. I've studied religion and mass communication effects somewhat as well as being a practising Christian, and as I see it the word "religion" commonly applies to the orthodoxy and its big, visible impacts that are social and psychological, rather than the personal, spiritual realm of gnostic metaphysical faith. The OP seems right in the sense that the SV technology cargo cult has all the bad mind-narrowing sides of orthodoxy and none of the good. Observe; suspension of critical thinking, credulity, superstition, arcane symbolism, charismatic leaders, secret knowledge, obsessive rituals and tics, insularity, smug self-righteous and strident proselytising, attacking and denigrating "unbelievers", defensiveness, fear of exclusion, dehumanisation of others, mass hysteria.... Digital tech (smartphones plus corporate social media), as presently configured, presses all the same buttons for psychological and societal harm that cults have for millennia. Moreover, it so pitifully fails to offer any positive social benefits, like a sense of real community, shared values, comfort and stability, or certainty. Instead it overlays a shallow and unreal facsimile of those things. "Idolatry" is probably a great way to frame it. Like historical religions it spawns a super-wealthy elite who exploit the confused masses. It has a small cadre of extremely vocal "true believers", disciples and acolytes, who cajole and bully along the enormous middle mass who are actually ambivalent "pretenders", technological agnostics who mostly can't be bothered to argue. They go along to get along, to avoid feeling persecuted ("left behind" - the modern equivalent of Hell). Real religions may span thousands of years and have subtantial continuity, but cult-tech presents a flimsy facade of being "deep, essential, enduring and universal". In reality, any thoughtful computer scientist can tell you, it's a heterogeneous assemblage of the arbitrary or, as Graeber observed, a world we can "remake in any way we choose". Working in cybersecurity, carefully observing genuine attitudes in peoples' unguarded moments - in contrast to their "official/professional" positions - makes me sure that were the entire telecommunications network of the planet to explode tomorrow, other than for food riots as payment and supply chains adjust, most people would have one bad week, shrug, and get on with the next thing. That's to say "it's all a game" but one that we're all very, very invested in trying to preserve... to the extent we're prepared to terrorise others into sharing our worldview to keep it so. Isn't that a sure hallmark of a religion?

cassepipe 1y ago

Relevant Scott Alexander's post : https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/25/is-everything-a-religion/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/25/is-everything-a-religi...