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Burn out and body damage from trades is not really factually based, especially not compared to something like software. You can actually quantify this. For inst

Burn out and body damage from trades is not really factually based, especially not compared to something like software. You can actually quantify this. For instance the median age of a construction worker is 42. [1] In some states it's pushing near 50. By contrast in software there is extreme defacto age discrimination. I don't think it's usually real age discrimination but simply companies don't really value experience in software much, and so somebody with many years years of experience is often seen as less desirable than somebody with little to no experience, but who you can pay a far lesser wage to. Whatever the reason, the point is that software is, for most, going to be a relatively short-lived career. I can't find a good source for the data on the age of developers, though there are a million blog style or Q/A posts bemoaning the increasing difficultly finding a job as developers age. The Stack Overflow survey [2] is probably not representative, but matches observation at least, with a median age in the younger side of the 25-34 bracket. And that brief window of time you have in software is after you [typically] spend 4 years in college, and then spend however many years paying off your college debt before you finally get to enjoy your full salary. And obviously I am speaking big picture here. There are people who have a catastrophic injury in the trades and live the rest of their life on disability from age 22. And there are software developers still coding at 50. But these are rare exceptions, and not the rule in either case. [1] - https://www.nahb.org/blog/2023/06/age-of-construction-workforce https://www.nahb.org/blog/2023/06/age-of-construction-workfo... [2] - https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2024/developer-profile#demographics-age-prof https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2024/developer-profile#demog...

lilwobbly 1y ago
Body damage math isn’t even close. BLS puts non-fatal injuries in construction at 2.3 cases per 100 FTEs. For computer systems design it’s 0.1 – that’s a 23× gap.whole job takes a toll over time. The median age of 42 just means a lot of sore 40-somethings can’t afford to quit yet. Age alone doesn’t tell you how their knees and backs feel after 20 years of rebar. Not sure how many people you know in the industry but most architects, managers, etc... are 40+ years old. Not even remotely difficult to get hired as a senior engineer, way more in demand than 20 years old devs
- trilbyglens 1y ago
  Sitting in a chair is also pretty terrible for your health. :)
  - chneu 1y ago
    The difference is one can then workout or take breaks, stand, or a variety of things to offset the sitting/sedentary time. The trades can really destroy your body and there isn't really a way around this besides changing the working conditions.
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      The problems aren't in the regular physical work. Our bodies were made to work and get stronger and more resilient with exertion. An average tradesman without some secondary issue like alcoholism is going to be in far better shape than your average programmer. The issue is that in the trades, and any physical work, there's always a chance of some freak accident. Fortunately these are extremely rare, and getting ever rarer over time, but they do exist. By contrast in software the worst somebody's going to have is falling out of their chair or slipping on the floor.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Here's the full table. [1] 2.3 is an extremely low rate for any job where you use your body in any way whatsoever. For instance it's the same rate as e.g. working in retail at a furniture store, and substantially less than the 3.6 rate for those working in retail at hobby/toy/game stores. And yeah obviously software has plenty of room to transition into management and other late career roles. The same is true of the trades where common later stage transitions involve starting your own shop (with a career of connections/clients made it's not the big undertaking it might sound) or moving onto teaching. But it's the same problem in both cases, a small minority of people will achieve such transitions. [1] - https://www.bls.gov/iif/nonfatal-injuries-and-illnesses-tables/table-1-injury-and-illness-rates-by-industry-2023-national.htm https://www.bls.gov/iif/nonfatal-injuries-and-illnesses-tabl...
mmooss 1y ago
> Burn out and body damage from trades is not really factually based, especially not compared to something like software. Your assertion isn't factually based - it's just another baseless claim on the Internet. I don't know the factual basis about the harm labor does - it's one of those things that generally don't need it for most people - but basic knowledge and reasoning is that hard, and repetitive, physical labor daily for decades is going to cause some real physical problems. Most white-collar workers I know over 40 have bad backs. I know college kids who didn't last a summer on a worksite. And as much better evidence, we have generations of reporting on it from the people who do physical labor. Those people have also long said they worked so their kids to do something different. I've never heard one who agreed with you - I've never heard anyone who agreed with you. If it's so great, do you think many developers in SV would take construction jobs if they paid more? Managers? Other white-collar workers? Out in the cold and rain? No remote working for those jobs. :) > There are people who have a catastrophic injury in the trades and live the rest of their life on disability from age 22. There are many other injuries - losing fingers and toes, serious traumatic injuries to every part of the body. I knew a painter who fell off a ladder, fell three stories and landed in the splits. But they had a family and they were back at it as soon as they healed; it wasn't without pain. If you do it every day for decades, how do you never fall from the ladder? > the median age of a construction worker is 42. [1] In some states it's pushing near 50. Many have no choice.

lilwobbly 1y ago

Body damage math isn’t even close. BLS puts non-fatal injuries in construction at 2.3 cases per 100 FTEs. For computer systems design it’s 0.1 – that’s a 23× gap.whole job takes a toll over time. The median age of 42 just means a lot of sore 40-somethings can’t afford to quit yet. Age alone doesn’t tell you how their knees and backs feel after 20 years of rebar. Not sure how many people you know in the industry but most architects, managers, etc... are 40+ years old. Not even remotely difficult to get hired as a senior engineer, way more in demand than 20 years old devs

trilbyglens 1y ago
Sitting in a chair is also pretty terrible for your health. :)
- chneu 1y ago
  The difference is one can then workout or take breaks, stand, or a variety of things to offset the sitting/sedentary time. The trades can really destroy your body and there isn't really a way around this besides changing the working conditions.
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    The problems aren't in the regular physical work. Our bodies were made to work and get stronger and more resilient with exertion. An average tradesman without some secondary issue like alcoholism is going to be in far better shape than your average programmer. The issue is that in the trades, and any physical work, there's always a chance of some freak accident. Fortunately these are extremely rare, and getting ever rarer over time, but they do exist. By contrast in software the worst somebody's going to have is falling out of their chair or slipping on the floor.
somenameforme 1y ago
Here's the full table. [1] 2.3 is an extremely low rate for any job where you use your body in any way whatsoever. For instance it's the same rate as e.g. working in retail at a furniture store, and substantially less than the 3.6 rate for those working in retail at hobby/toy/game stores. And yeah obviously software has plenty of room to transition into management and other late career roles. The same is true of the trades where common later stage transitions involve starting your own shop (with a career of connections/clients made it's not the big undertaking it might sound) or moving onto teaching. But it's the same problem in both cases, a small minority of people will achieve such transitions. [1] - https://www.bls.gov/iif/nonfatal-injuries-and-illnesses-tables/table-1-injury-and-illness-rates-by-industry-2023-national.htm https://www.bls.gov/iif/nonfatal-injuries-and-illnesses-tabl...

mmooss 1y ago

> Burn out and body damage from trades is not really factually based, especially not compared to something like software. Your assertion isn't factually based - it's just another baseless claim on the Internet. I don't know the factual basis about the harm labor does - it's one of those things that generally don't need it for most people - but basic knowledge and reasoning is that hard, and repetitive, physical labor daily for decades is going to cause some real physical problems. Most white-collar workers I know over 40 have bad backs. I know college kids who didn't last a summer on a worksite. And as much better evidence, we have generations of reporting on it from the people who do physical labor. Those people have also long said they worked so their kids to do something different. I've never heard one who agreed with you - I've never heard anyone who agreed with you. If it's so great, do you think many developers in SV would take construction jobs if they paid more? Managers? Other white-collar workers? Out in the cold and rain? No remote working for those jobs. :) > There are people who have a catastrophic injury in the trades and live the rest of their life on disability from age 22. There are many other injuries - losing fingers and toes, serious traumatic injuries to every part of the body. I knew a painter who fell off a ladder, fell three stories and landed in the splits. But they had a family and they were back at it as soon as they healed; it wasn't without pain. If you do it every day for decades, how do you never fall from the ladder? > the median age of a construction worker is 42. [1] In some states it's pushing near 50. Many have no choice.