6 ms·

This would not have been kind to any RF/EMF systems, be they GEO, LEO or terrestrial. We'd have been walking around marvelling at st elmo's fire coming off any

by ggm 1y ago

This would not have been kind to any RF/EMF systems, be they GEO, LEO or terrestrial. We'd have been walking around marvelling at st elmo's fire coming off any point-contact junction between metal or exposed metal structure, with the most fantastic skies at night. On the other hand, would allergy sufferers be marvelling at the removal of all the dust and pollen? This would be like the outdoors becoming a giant anti-static dust remover. Primitive man wakes up, discovers can breathe through both nostrils...

roygbiv2 1y ago
How would this effect computers and everyday electrical devices? If we detected something like this heading towards us would we have to turn everything off for the day/week? That's just not possible though is it, can't just turn off nuclear power plants for the day.
- cyberax 1y ago
  There won't be any effect. Solar flares do NOT affect the devices on the ground. All the fast-moving charged particles are completely absorbed in the upper atmosphere. And to give you some perspective, the most energetic flares can produce 10^-3 W/m^2 flux at the Earth's orbit. The flares do affect the geomagnetic field. And a changing magnetic field induces current, but it becomes non-negligible only for very long conductors. So long-distance power transmission lines might suddenly become biased with a persistent DC voltage, and some long optical cables might start experiencing over/undervoltage problems with amplifiers. But locally? You won't see anything unusual.
  - roygbiv2 1y ago
    Well there you go then, a little dull but probably for the best.
  - jiggawatts 1y ago
    The panic about these is way out of proportion with the real risks. Modern systems have all sorts of over-voltage protection, and we no longer use "telegraph wires" directly connected to vulnerable electronics like speakers and amplifiers. All modern telecommunications are over fibre or radio links.
    - adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
      How much do wire distance, intended voltage matter? All the power electronics are almost certainly protected by caps, but are big office ethernet runs long enough to cause issues? What about coax cables? It seems like with how many more cables we have now, that one of them probably has a design that would cause notable inconvenience.
      - cyberax 1y ago
        You need at least hundreds of kilometers for the effects to become significant (as in "tens of volts"). Nothing on the small scale will be affected. Power lines might be the most vulnerable part, actually. The geomagnetic field can induce current that will bias the core of transformers, causing them to overheat. This can lead to blackouts if the networks are close to capacity, and it's suspected that the 2003 North East Blackout was at least partially caused by them.
      - lazide 1y ago
        Over voltage protection is not provided by caps (generally), but MOV’s, Zenier Diodes, spark gaps, etc. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector]. Essentially, components that kick in when a voltage exceeds a certain limit to allow that excess voltage to shunt to ground instead of continue to build up in the circuit. Similar devices in pneumatics or hydraulics are pressure relief valves [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_valve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_valve], and they provide similar functionality - giving a easier/lower resistance path for the high voltage/pressure, so delicate things downstream don’t fail.
      - fsloth 1y ago
        Geomagnetically induced currents generally become a problem over hundreds of kilometers. Long range electricity transmission lines are the main worry I believe and solar storm events have knocked off large grids occasionally. I have no idea what the correlation is between particle flux (the metric reported here) and actual geomagnetic variation which induces the current (varying magnetic field causes voltage). Basically the charged particles zoom past earth, then loop back from the magnetotail towards the poles. The magnetohydrodynamics cause effects large enough to modulate the magnetic field on earths surface. ”We have this long conducting loop” is the issue. The Earth is one component of the loop.
  - ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 1y ago
    > But locally? You won't see anything unusual. Not necessarily? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset Some Miyake events are also thought have lasted a year or longer. I think there could be a very bad time if an event like this lasted a year?
    - cyberax 1y ago
      Solar flares consist of protons and electrons, that are pretty slow-moving by nuclear standards. So they get absorbed by the atmosphere completely. What solar flares do, they deform the Earth's magnetic field so that more cosmic rays (from outside the Solar System) can reach the surface. But the cosmic ray flux is not that high to begin with. And electronic devices certainly won't self-destruct if the radiation is slightly higher than normal. After all, you experience far more cosmic ray radiation when you're flying on an airplane than during one of these events!
      - ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 1y ago
        Right, but there are still risks (aside from SEUs) that one would "experience locally"? https://assets.lloyds.com/assets/pdf-solar-storm-risk-to-the-north-american-electric-grid/1/pdf-Solar-Storm-Risk-to-the-North-American-Electric-Grid.pdf https://assets.lloyds.com/assets/pdf-solar-storm-risk-to-the...
  - shakna 1y ago
    They won't affect your phone or laptop, but transformers along the longer ranges of the grid are unprotected. An X-class flare won't do anything. But in the size of the article? Localised temporary blackouts would be entirely unsurprising.
    - cyberax 1y ago
      > They won't affect your phone or laptop, but transformers along the longer ranges of the grid are unprotected. They actually are. Protection against lightning strikes and atmospheric electricity is a part of the design for the high-voltage lines. CMEs might cause enough additional load on the lines to cause them to trip if they are close to failure already, and this is well-recognized and can be mitigated by load-shedding early.
brookst 1y ago
Damn, you took me from “hope that doesn’t happen again in my lifetime” to “oh Jesus please let that happen tomorrow” in just a few words.
- hattar 1y ago
  I spent my whole life only breathing through half a nostril on a good day. About 10 years ago I got surgery and Sublingual Immunotherapy drops, and the results have been life changing. I sleep better, my mind is clearer, I feel like an entirely new person. I am not exaggerating when I say that I still occasionally think about how nice it is to be able to breathe clearly.
  - coenhyde 1y ago
    Oxygen is a hell of a drug. I use nose strips, and I'm addicted now too.
    - thanatos519 1y ago
      I tried nose strips but I don't like disposables. I now use silicone nostril openers - two little tubes attached at the base that you stick up your nose. It came as a set of 4 sizes so a bit of waste there, but one size fit me and one size fit my wife.
      - bakoo 1y ago
        I would love to know where you got them from!
        N2yhWNXQN3k9 1y ago
        You can find them under the search phrase: "nasal dilator".
      - N2yhWNXQN3k9 1y ago
        These work well, but I wonder about hygiene. I keep mine in a glass dish on my desktop and attempt to cleanse them in hydrogen peroxide on occasion. Ultimately, surgery is the best option in my experienced opinion, but it also has diminishing returns over time (~20 years in my case). This occurred recently for me, and I am looking to consult with an ENT again, when I feel like taking the recovery leap. With that said, I am still functioning extremely better than I ever did when I couldn't breathe 20 years ago.
cyberax 1y ago
You're overestimating the effects. They would have been imperceptible on the ground, except for the stunning aurorae.
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> would allergy sufferers be marvelling at the removal of all the dust and pollen? This would be like the outdoors becoming a giant anti-static dust remover How do solar flares render pollen groundborne?
- ggm 1y ago
  How did research on the solar event find a layer deposited in what is undoubtedly surface not upper atmosphere?
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > How did research on the solar event find a layer deposited in what is undoubtedly surface not upper atmosphere? FTFA: "Solar particle storms can greatly enhance the normal production of cosmogenic isotopes like radiocarbon (14C) in the atmosphere by galactic cosmic rays. Such enhanced production, preserved in annual tree rings, serves as a clear cosmic timestamp making possible absolute dating of tree samples."
Mistletoe 1y ago
I feel like primitive man had no problems breathing through both nostrils anyway. https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/allergies-are-common-today-but-did-they-also-impact-our-ancient-ancestors https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/allergies-are-common...
- ajuc 1y ago
  The ones that had - died as small kids.
konart 1y ago
>Primitive man wakes up, discovers can breathe through both nostrils... Not exactly both though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_cycle
greggsy 1y ago
I recall reading about some link between respiratory effectiveness and human development. No idea how valid that research might have been. In retrospect, it almost borders on phrenology.
TimByte 1y ago
Nature's way of saying sorry for the EMP apocalypse
emchammer 1y ago
Aren’t smaller microprocessor die sizes more vulnerable to this? Should we be building integrated circuits with larger feature sizes now that we have power and performance figured out?

by ggm 1y ago

roygbiv2 1y ago

How would this effect computers and everyday electrical devices? If we detected something like this heading towards us would we have to turn everything off for the day/week? That's just not possible though is it, can't just turn off nuclear power plants for the day.

cyberax 1y ago
There won't be any effect. Solar flares do NOT affect the devices on the ground. All the fast-moving charged particles are completely absorbed in the upper atmosphere. And to give you some perspective, the most energetic flares can produce 10^-3 W/m^2 flux at the Earth's orbit. The flares do affect the geomagnetic field. And a changing magnetic field induces current, but it becomes non-negligible only for very long conductors. So long-distance power transmission lines might suddenly become biased with a persistent DC voltage, and some long optical cables might start experiencing over/undervoltage problems with amplifiers. But locally? You won't see anything unusual.
- roygbiv2 1y ago
  Well there you go then, a little dull but probably for the best.
- jiggawatts 1y ago
  The panic about these is way out of proportion with the real risks. Modern systems have all sorts of over-voltage protection, and we no longer use "telegraph wires" directly connected to vulnerable electronics like speakers and amplifiers. All modern telecommunications are over fibre or radio links.
  - adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
    How much do wire distance, intended voltage matter? All the power electronics are almost certainly protected by caps, but are big office ethernet runs long enough to cause issues? What about coax cables? It seems like with how many more cables we have now, that one of them probably has a design that would cause notable inconvenience.
    - cyberax 1y ago
      You need at least hundreds of kilometers for the effects to become significant (as in "tens of volts"). Nothing on the small scale will be affected. Power lines might be the most vulnerable part, actually. The geomagnetic field can induce current that will bias the core of transformers, causing them to overheat. This can lead to blackouts if the networks are close to capacity, and it's suspected that the 2003 North East Blackout was at least partially caused by them.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Over voltage protection is not provided by caps (generally), but MOV’s, Zenier Diodes, spark gaps, etc. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector]. Essentially, components that kick in when a voltage exceeds a certain limit to allow that excess voltage to shunt to ground instead of continue to build up in the circuit. Similar devices in pneumatics or hydraulics are pressure relief valves [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_valve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_valve], and they provide similar functionality - giving a easier/lower resistance path for the high voltage/pressure, so delicate things downstream don’t fail.
    - fsloth 1y ago
      Geomagnetically induced currents generally become a problem over hundreds of kilometers. Long range electricity transmission lines are the main worry I believe and solar storm events have knocked off large grids occasionally. I have no idea what the correlation is between particle flux (the metric reported here) and actual geomagnetic variation which induces the current (varying magnetic field causes voltage). Basically the charged particles zoom past earth, then loop back from the magnetotail towards the poles. The magnetohydrodynamics cause effects large enough to modulate the magnetic field on earths surface. ”We have this long conducting loop” is the issue. The Earth is one component of the loop.
- ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 1y ago
  > But locally? You won't see anything unusual. Not necessarily? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset Some Miyake events are also thought have lasted a year or longer. I think there could be a very bad time if an event like this lasted a year?
  - cyberax 1y ago
    Solar flares consist of protons and electrons, that are pretty slow-moving by nuclear standards. So they get absorbed by the atmosphere completely. What solar flares do, they deform the Earth's magnetic field so that more cosmic rays (from outside the Solar System) can reach the surface. But the cosmic ray flux is not that high to begin with. And electronic devices certainly won't self-destruct if the radiation is slightly higher than normal. After all, you experience far more cosmic ray radiation when you're flying on an airplane than during one of these events!
    - ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 1y ago
      Right, but there are still risks (aside from SEUs) that one would "experience locally"? https://assets.lloyds.com/assets/pdf-solar-storm-risk-to-the-north-american-electric-grid/1/pdf-Solar-Storm-Risk-to-the-North-American-Electric-Grid.pdf https://assets.lloyds.com/assets/pdf-solar-storm-risk-to-the...
- shakna 1y ago
  They won't affect your phone or laptop, but transformers along the longer ranges of the grid are unprotected. An X-class flare won't do anything. But in the size of the article? Localised temporary blackouts would be entirely unsurprising.
  - cyberax 1y ago
    > They won't affect your phone or laptop, but transformers along the longer ranges of the grid are unprotected. They actually are. Protection against lightning strikes and atmospheric electricity is a part of the design for the high-voltage lines. CMEs might cause enough additional load on the lines to cause them to trip if they are close to failure already, and this is well-recognized and can be mitigated by load-shedding early.

brookst 1y ago

Damn, you took me from “hope that doesn’t happen again in my lifetime” to “oh Jesus please let that happen tomorrow” in just a few words.

hattar 1y ago
I spent my whole life only breathing through half a nostril on a good day. About 10 years ago I got surgery and Sublingual Immunotherapy drops, and the results have been life changing. I sleep better, my mind is clearer, I feel like an entirely new person. I am not exaggerating when I say that I still occasionally think about how nice it is to be able to breathe clearly.
- coenhyde 1y ago
  Oxygen is a hell of a drug. I use nose strips, and I'm addicted now too.
  - thanatos519 1y ago
    I tried nose strips but I don't like disposables. I now use silicone nostril openers - two little tubes attached at the base that you stick up your nose. It came as a set of 4 sizes so a bit of waste there, but one size fit me and one size fit my wife.
    - bakoo 1y ago
      I would love to know where you got them from!
      - N2yhWNXQN3k9 1y ago
        You can find them under the search phrase: "nasal dilator".
    - N2yhWNXQN3k9 1y ago
      These work well, but I wonder about hygiene. I keep mine in a glass dish on my desktop and attempt to cleanse them in hydrogen peroxide on occasion. Ultimately, surgery is the best option in my experienced opinion, but it also has diminishing returns over time (~20 years in my case). This occurred recently for me, and I am looking to consult with an ENT again, when I feel like taking the recovery leap. With that said, I am still functioning extremely better than I ever did when I couldn't breathe 20 years ago.

cyberax 1y ago

You're overestimating the effects. They would have been imperceptible on the ground, except for the stunning aurorae.

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> would allergy sufferers be marvelling at the removal of all the dust and pollen? This would be like the outdoors becoming a giant anti-static dust remover How do solar flares render pollen groundborne?

ggm 1y ago
How did research on the solar event find a layer deposited in what is undoubtedly surface not upper atmosphere?
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > How did research on the solar event find a layer deposited in what is undoubtedly surface not upper atmosphere? FTFA: "Solar particle storms can greatly enhance the normal production of cosmogenic isotopes like radiocarbon (14C) in the atmosphere by galactic cosmic rays. Such enhanced production, preserved in annual tree rings, serves as a clear cosmic timestamp making possible absolute dating of tree samples."

Mistletoe 1y ago

I feel like primitive man had no problems breathing through both nostrils anyway. https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/allergies-are-common-today-but-did-they-also-impact-our-ancient-ancestors https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/allergies-are-common...

ajuc 1y ago
The ones that had - died as small kids.

konart 1y ago

>Primitive man wakes up, discovers can breathe through both nostrils... Not exactly both though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_cycle

greggsy 1y ago

I recall reading about some link between respiratory effectiveness and human development. No idea how valid that research might have been. In retrospect, it almost borders on phrenology.

TimByte 1y ago

Nature's way of saying sorry for the EMP apocalypse

emchammer 1y ago

Aren’t smaller microprocessor die sizes more vulnerable to this? Should we be building integrated circuits with larger feature sizes now that we have power and performance figured out?