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I hold that these people are deeply mislead at best, not well at worst, as their argument is essentially reducto ad absurdum but taken seriously. It’s as though

I hold that these people are deeply mislead at best, not well at worst, as their argument is essentially reducto ad absurdum but taken seriously. It’s as though they’ve encountered a shard of philosophy and hold it as a universal truth. There’s also a facet of strict benthamite utilitarianism that falls into the trap of accepting reified societal norms as being objective reality - for instance, the core idea that pain and suffering are bad. On an individual level, I would hold that they are the whetstones that sharpen the soul - through crushing trauma we grow, and find new meaning, and experience “goods” in our existence hitherto unobserved or unappreciated for their nature. In a societal level, they are an essential facet of empathy, and the ability to build cohesive societies. There’s a commonality in popular philosophies in that they attempt to provide a universal framework, an imperative system of being - yet they almost inevitably lean on inherited dispositions and concepts with only selective examination of their foundations. This results in a tendency to either say that everything matters, or nothing matters. It’s hard for me to see much of a distinction between much of the large schools of philosophy and religion. Like with so many things, the truth, if indeed there is such a thing, lies in a murky middle ground, and is in the eye of the beholder. I suppose baudrillard, to my mind, has come the closest to explaining where we are, without attempting to systemise a way of being. Anyway. This kind of thing has happened, happens, and will happen, as long as there are humans to have ideas, and language to promulgate them. Fatalistic, perhaps, but manuscripts don’t burn - they just metastasise.

Johanx64 1y ago
> There’s also a facet of strict benthamite utilitarianism that falls into the trap of accepting reified societal norms as being objective reality - for instance, the core idea that pain and suffering are bad. Man, people DO vax poetic online, but when you introduce them to the blowtorch, some tweezers and a steel pipe, they don't need much convincing that pain and suffering is ... in fact ... objectively bad. They convert to recognizing the badness of pain and suffering..... very, very quickly. > I would hold that they are the whetstones that sharpen the soul You really have no idea what you're talking about, are you? How can anyone type this naive drivel?
- ip26 1y ago
  There’s a difference between being tortured in the “to death” sense, and milder forms of suffering. Hunger pangs, mild sleep deprivation, pushing through exhaustion, mild hypothermia, etc are a form of suffering. But they are also something people are routinely willing to subject themselves to during sport. I would like anesthesia for surgery, but I still participate in endurance sports…
  - autarch 1y ago
    I think endurance sports (and many other sports, like rock climbing, which I enjoy), are a mix of type 1 and type 2 fun (https://www.rei.com/blog/climb/fun-scale https://www.rei.com/blog/climb/fun-scale). There may be some suffering while you do it, but the overall experience is positive when you look back at it. This is quite different from surgery without anesthesia, which would definitely not be fun in the end, at least for most people.
    - madaxe_again 1y ago
      It wouldn’t be fun, no, but it would sure as hell make you appreciate not undergoing surgery without anaesthesia. From a personal perspective, I spent years suffering from a mystery illness (ah, the joys of tropical diseases), and it made me appreciate the times when I wasn’t having an acute episode immensely, which otherwise would have been “ordinary”. My wife would be like “there are leaves all over the driveway!” and I would be like “yes, aren’t they beautiful?”.
- madaxe_again 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - actualwitch 1y ago
    It is this kind of thinking that leads to what is depicted in Whiplash.
autarch 1y ago
I do agree that some relatively small amount of suffering is a good learning experience, especially for kids. Mostly, they learn that what they _think_ is huge suffering (delayed gratification, having to share, being polite to people) is in fact not suffering at all. Long-term, I think this leads to greater happiness in life, so the suffering is justified. But as the sibling comment noted, this can be taken too far quite quickly. Based on what you wrote, one could say that literally torturing people (crushing trauma) is good for them. Hopefully you don't believe that. I think it's pretty clear that suffering past a certain point ceases to be instructive.
- chneu 1y ago
  Humans grow and adapt through adversity. Some folks just take it too far. Adversity isn't the only thing that encourages us to grow. Just one of many.

Johanx64 1y ago

> There’s also a facet of strict benthamite utilitarianism that falls into the trap of accepting reified societal norms as being objective reality - for instance, the core idea that pain and suffering are bad. Man, people DO vax poetic online, but when you introduce them to the blowtorch, some tweezers and a steel pipe, they don't need much convincing that pain and suffering is ... in fact ... objectively bad. They convert to recognizing the badness of pain and suffering..... very, very quickly. > I would hold that they are the whetstones that sharpen the soul You really have no idea what you're talking about, are you? How can anyone type this naive drivel?

ip26 1y ago
There’s a difference between being tortured in the “to death” sense, and milder forms of suffering. Hunger pangs, mild sleep deprivation, pushing through exhaustion, mild hypothermia, etc are a form of suffering. But they are also something people are routinely willing to subject themselves to during sport. I would like anesthesia for surgery, but I still participate in endurance sports…
- autarch 1y ago
  I think endurance sports (and many other sports, like rock climbing, which I enjoy), are a mix of type 1 and type 2 fun (https://www.rei.com/blog/climb/fun-scale https://www.rei.com/blog/climb/fun-scale). There may be some suffering while you do it, but the overall experience is positive when you look back at it. This is quite different from surgery without anesthesia, which would definitely not be fun in the end, at least for most people.
  - madaxe_again 1y ago
    It wouldn’t be fun, no, but it would sure as hell make you appreciate not undergoing surgery without anaesthesia. From a personal perspective, I spent years suffering from a mystery illness (ah, the joys of tropical diseases), and it made me appreciate the times when I wasn’t having an acute episode immensely, which otherwise would have been “ordinary”. My wife would be like “there are leaves all over the driveway!” and I would be like “yes, aren’t they beautiful?”.
madaxe_again 1y ago
[flagged]
- actualwitch 1y ago
  It is this kind of thinking that leads to what is depicted in Whiplash.

autarch 1y ago

I do agree that some relatively small amount of suffering is a good learning experience, especially for kids. Mostly, they learn that what they _think_ is huge suffering (delayed gratification, having to share, being polite to people) is in fact not suffering at all. Long-term, I think this leads to greater happiness in life, so the suffering is justified. But as the sibling comment noted, this can be taken too far quite quickly. Based on what you wrote, one could say that literally torturing people (crushing trauma) is good for them. Hopefully you don't believe that. I think it's pretty clear that suffering past a certain point ceases to be instructive.

chneu 1y ago
Humans grow and adapt through adversity. Some folks just take it too far. Adversity isn't the only thing that encourages us to grow. Just one of many.