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You have to discount Gaza's economic development by needing to rebuild their infrastructure every few years and a complete blockade since 2007. Why is there so

by ethbr1 1y ago

You have to discount Gaza's economic development by needing to rebuild their infrastructure every few years and a complete blockade since 2007. Why is there so much per capita aid to Gaza? Because Israel prevents them from having a functioning economy. Why does Israel prevent that? Because then it would have to bargain with a stronger counterparty for an ultimate resolution. Until Israel realizes that it either needs to (a) kill every man, woman, and child in Gaza or (b) grant them a functioning, independent state, the wheel will keep on turning. Israel represses and provokes Palestinians; Palestinians lash out; Israel cracks down militarily until international pressure forces them to stop; GOTO 10.

spwa4 1y ago
[flagged]
- ethbr1 1y ago
  > I'm sure just like everything in your world this is a Jewish conspiracy... Try and avoid assumptions and ad hom's, if you want someone to read the rest of what you wrote.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      holds up mirror If you're ready to have a conversation, I'm game. If you want to pathos-bait (or even worse, can't tell that you're doing it), then I've got more interesting people to talk to.
      - spwa4 1y ago
        Anyone who reads your initial comment will agree that EVERY point you made boils down to "this happened, but it's a Jewish conspiracy". You barely mention Palestinians.
        ethbr1 1y ago
        You realize the government of Israel and the Jewish people are two distinct things, right?
- bernb 1y ago
  I don't think most Palestinians want the war. Most of them just want to love their lives just as most people in the world do. When people voted for Hamas back then, they specifically didn't wanted what Hamas did afterwards. At least I have seen polls that strongly indicate that. People were angry back then that there wasn't enough progress on the matter. Leadership is a different matter. Hamas is a terror organization, they achieve their goals by means of terror and that's what defined them. So they of course want terror. Don't know much about Fatah, but they seem to be much more interested in political solutions. Israel gives them a hard time though as they keep demonstrating that they want to replace the Arab population in the westbank with Jewish settlers.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    ... and given the choice between war and 1000 usd/month/person help, or no war, but, let's say 250 usd/month/person in help, and the rest has to come from a job (and if you want 750 that will be a job in Israel, likely working for Jews, for less, let's say half, than Israeli make). Not the "war or peace, with no further consequences" fake choice people like to pretend exists? The Israel-Palestine conflict always was a proxy war. Maybe less so on Israel's side, but always on the muslim/Arab side, even before it started. Peace would mean support from the proxies stops and Israeli and Palestinians would have to care for themselves. Aid would drop to the level anyone else gets (which isn't even 1/4th of what they currently officially get, more like 1/20th, and probably even less if you count unofficial "aid") Given that choice, the real choice, war or desperate poverty, what do Palestinians want? Frankly, if we look at history, I'd argue it historically took a lot less than what is bound to happen in Palestine to get people to start a war. For example, the French revolution was preceded and at least partly caused by a tax increase of 16%. This would be an effective 75% to 90% tax increase. Oh and to add insult to injury, of course, stopping the war would mean economic disaster on the Palestinian side, but it would ALSO mean an immediate economic boom like nothing before on the Israeli side. Palestinians would be forced into desperate poverty ... and Israeli may see their wages double at the same time, for the same reason. This conflict cannot end with this level of aid provided to the Palestinian side. It just can't.
bernb 1y ago
I don't think your provoking theory holds because before the massacre on 7th October, the situation between Gaza and Israel was improving. That's also why intelligence didn't think Hamas would start such a massacre. Israel tends to eventually destroy infrastructure that's (dual-)used to increase Hamas terror infrastructure. Unfortunately, that's virtually all of existing infrastructure right now. Why hasn't Gaza normalized it's relationship with Egypt? They have closed their borders to Gaza as well because Hamas is friends with Muslim brotherhood and apparently Egypt thinks a proper border with Gaza would do harm to Egypt.
- dunekid 1y ago
  >Why hasn't Gaza normalized it's relationship with Egypt? The border is controlled by Israel. Egypt US and Israel has a tripartite treaty to have Egypt act as a mere watchdog on the border. This border crossing is now controlled by Israel. The sea is controlled by Israel, and has fixed and detained any maritime peace activities, read the floatilla raid on Palestinian waters. Maybe we should be holding accountable those who call themselves to a democratic nation than a party in a small bombed out piece of land.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    It is NOW. For obvious reasons. Other than that: bullshit. The border was controlled by Egypt and Hamas from 2005 to 2021. Incidentally it was Egypt that closed the border, not Israel (after hamas decided to murder Egyptian army officers "because they were Jews", I might add, the incidents (plural) that wikipedia euphemistically describes as "escalation of cross-border incidents between Israel and Hamas". Cross-border is correct, but somehow it is not relevant to point out that it was hamas attacks in Egypt, and that it was Egyptian security forces that died. Oh and they probably weren't even anti-Israel attacks but an attempt to sabotage one of the attempts of the Egyptians to hold an election. That attempt was succesfull I might add (of course it's still the middle east and "it's complicated") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing#2005:_Israel_disengages;_Egypt-Palestinian_border https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing#2005:_Is...

by ethbr1 1y ago

spwa4 1y ago

[flagged]

ethbr1 1y ago
> I'm sure just like everything in your world this is a Jewish conspiracy... Try and avoid assumptions and ad hom's, if you want someone to read the rest of what you wrote.
- spwa4 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    holds up mirror If you're ready to have a conversation, I'm game. If you want to pathos-bait (or even worse, can't tell that you're doing it), then I've got more interesting people to talk to.
    - spwa4 1y ago
      Anyone who reads your initial comment will agree that EVERY point you made boils down to "this happened, but it's a Jewish conspiracy". You barely mention Palestinians.
      - ethbr1 1y ago
        You realize the government of Israel and the Jewish people are two distinct things, right?
bernb 1y ago
I don't think most Palestinians want the war. Most of them just want to love their lives just as most people in the world do. When people voted for Hamas back then, they specifically didn't wanted what Hamas did afterwards. At least I have seen polls that strongly indicate that. People were angry back then that there wasn't enough progress on the matter. Leadership is a different matter. Hamas is a terror organization, they achieve their goals by means of terror and that's what defined them. So they of course want terror. Don't know much about Fatah, but they seem to be much more interested in political solutions. Israel gives them a hard time though as they keep demonstrating that they want to replace the Arab population in the westbank with Jewish settlers.
- spwa4 1y ago
  ... and given the choice between war and 1000 usd/month/person help, or no war, but, let's say 250 usd/month/person in help, and the rest has to come from a job (and if you want 750 that will be a job in Israel, likely working for Jews, for less, let's say half, than Israeli make). Not the "war or peace, with no further consequences" fake choice people like to pretend exists? The Israel-Palestine conflict always was a proxy war. Maybe less so on Israel's side, but always on the muslim/Arab side, even before it started. Peace would mean support from the proxies stops and Israeli and Palestinians would have to care for themselves. Aid would drop to the level anyone else gets (which isn't even 1/4th of what they currently officially get, more like 1/20th, and probably even less if you count unofficial "aid") Given that choice, the real choice, war or desperate poverty, what do Palestinians want? Frankly, if we look at history, I'd argue it historically took a lot less than what is bound to happen in Palestine to get people to start a war. For example, the French revolution was preceded and at least partly caused by a tax increase of 16%. This would be an effective 75% to 90% tax increase. Oh and to add insult to injury, of course, stopping the war would mean economic disaster on the Palestinian side, but it would ALSO mean an immediate economic boom like nothing before on the Israeli side. Palestinians would be forced into desperate poverty ... and Israeli may see their wages double at the same time, for the same reason. This conflict cannot end with this level of aid provided to the Palestinian side. It just can't.

bernb 1y ago

I don't think your provoking theory holds because before the massacre on 7th October, the situation between Gaza and Israel was improving. That's also why intelligence didn't think Hamas would start such a massacre. Israel tends to eventually destroy infrastructure that's (dual-)used to increase Hamas terror infrastructure. Unfortunately, that's virtually all of existing infrastructure right now. Why hasn't Gaza normalized it's relationship with Egypt? They have closed their borders to Gaza as well because Hamas is friends with Muslim brotherhood and apparently Egypt thinks a proper border with Gaza would do harm to Egypt.

dunekid 1y ago
>Why hasn't Gaza normalized it's relationship with Egypt? The border is controlled by Israel. Egypt US and Israel has a tripartite treaty to have Egypt act as a mere watchdog on the border. This border crossing is now controlled by Israel. The sea is controlled by Israel, and has fixed and detained any maritime peace activities, read the floatilla raid on Palestinian waters. Maybe we should be holding accountable those who call themselves to a democratic nation than a party in a small bombed out piece of land.
- spwa4 1y ago
  It is NOW. For obvious reasons. Other than that: bullshit. The border was controlled by Egypt and Hamas from 2005 to 2021. Incidentally it was Egypt that closed the border, not Israel (after hamas decided to murder Egyptian army officers "because they were Jews", I might add, the incidents (plural) that wikipedia euphemistically describes as "escalation of cross-border incidents between Israel and Hamas". Cross-border is correct, but somehow it is not relevant to point out that it was hamas attacks in Egypt, and that it was Egyptian security forces that died. Oh and they probably weren't even anti-Israel attacks but an attempt to sabotage one of the attempts of the Egyptians to hold an election. That attempt was succesfull I might add (of course it's still the middle east and "it's complicated") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing#2005:_Israel_disengages;_Egypt-Palestinian_border https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing#2005:_Is...