5 ms·

And it would be heartless not to. Those housekeepers need jobs and incomes.

mauvehaus 1y ago
Perhaps not exactly comparable, but I went to a talk at wlog REI from some relatively ordinary person who climbed some famous, but accessible peak (Kilimanjaro?). I asked about the practice of hiring local porters, and got basically this answer. The local economy pretty much depends on the influx of foreign money from the people climbing. A fit person would be physically capable of carrying their full load, but it simply isn't done because of the economic disparity between the foreign climbers and the local porters. I don't know if that was enforced by law or custom, but the presenter was quite clear that it's not really possible to climb without local porters.
- normie3000 1y ago
  On Kilimanjaro you must employ a guide, a cook for the guide, and a porter to carry the gear of the cook and the guide. You are welcome to carry your own gear but at this point you've already got a support team of 3 people and are paying $1500+. An extra porter is probably around $100.
tuatoru 1y ago
I don't know why you are getting downvoted. Over the years I have heard several anecdotes from "expat" wives in various places (Kenya, Philippines, New Guinea) of being taken aside by a local headman soon after arrival and being told that they will hire a cook and a housekeeper and a laundrymaid. On the mediocrity principle, I think this is how things worked in general. Necessary to the local economy.
JohnBooty 1y ago
Yeah I think this is something that people in countries like the US don't instinctively understand, or at least I didn't. My Filipino friend explained to me that back home, if you have more than a certain amount of money, it's seen as incredibly selfish not to employ people as housekeepers, etc. I'd imagine that's true in a lot of places with income disparity and/or high unemployment numbers. It made a lot of sense to me.
- bombcar 1y ago
  We have that in the USA for some things - depending on where you live. Some places if you’re the only house on the block who mows their own lawn, you’ll be considered stingy or weird.
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  My mom visited a professor in an African country a few years back, as part of a project. She told me the professor had a guy employed to open and close the gates for when he drove to work and came home in the evening. That's all the guy did. Full time job. Sounded so preposterous at first, but after thinking a wee bit I came to a similar conclusion that the alternatives might be a lot worse. It was steady income, albeit not a lot.
  - lazyasciiart 1y ago
    I assume he also stayed actively present at the gates during the day and/or night and functioned as some kind of watchman?
  - ricardobayes 1y ago
    Sounds like any gated community with a security guard post at the entrance.
- 47282847 1y ago
  I understand where this is coming from but that argument simply doesn’t make sense. There are many ways to give back to society; providing low-status jobs is only one of them. And a poor one, because it locks people in that status and heteronomy. Within 10 minutes, anyone can come up with some ideas that would contribute to other people’s development and growth in a more sustainable fashion. It serves other purposes. That narrative is a convenient collective lie, full stop.
  - rglullis 1y ago
    > And a poor one, because it locks people in that status and heteronomy What is the current alternative? Are they any better? When I was kid growing up (in Brazil), we had a live-in housekeeper. She moved to São Paulo from some poor rural area in the South of Brazil. As many people from poor rural areas, she was forced to drop out of school on 3rd grade to help her family. If I remember it correctly, she was 21, 22 years old when she first moved in. The agreement was she would get minimum wage + regular benefits + free housing. She would work from ~7:30am until 3pm, get a break in the afternoon and then go to night school from 7 to 10pm. On weekends she was free, so she could either be out with her friends or coming along our weekend camping trips. She worked with us for 5-6 years, finished school, moved out of our home when she got married. Had two daughters, the oldest one just finished college. I know all that because 30+ years later my mom and her still keep in touch. Possibly stories like these are not the majority, but they were pretty common. Today, this would be unthinkable not because economic inequality has diminished, but because whatever we had that passed for "middle class" in Brazil got completely squeezed out by governments over the last 25 years.
cess11 1y ago
Are all jobs and incomes alike?
impossiblefork 1y ago
It doesn't heartless. You can, instead of paying for a housekeeper pay for machines etc. made in the country in question, thus creating technical jobs there that might develop people more than housekeeping does.
- bluGill 1y ago
  The machines are more expensive than the housekeeper and the housekeeper doesn't have the education to make them. In the US (and Europe...) labor is expensive so it make sense to have technical people design machines.
ta1243 1y ago
Personally I'd hate the lack of privacy

Perhaps not exactly comparable, but I went to a talk at wlog REI from some relatively ordinary person who climbed some famous, but accessible peak (Kilimanjaro?). I asked about the practice of hiring local porters, and got basically this answer. The local economy pretty much depends on the influx of foreign money from the people climbing. A fit person would be physically capable of carrying their full load, but it simply isn't done because of the economic disparity between the foreign climbers and the local porters. I don't know if that was enforced by law or custom, but the presenter was quite clear that it's not really possible to climb without local porters.

normie3000 1y ago
On Kilimanjaro you must employ a guide, a cook for the guide, and a porter to carry the gear of the cook and the guide. You are welcome to carry your own gear but at this point you've already got a support team of 3 people and are paying $1500+. An extra porter is probably around $100.

tuatoru 1y ago

I don't know why you are getting downvoted. Over the years I have heard several anecdotes from "expat" wives in various places (Kenya, Philippines, New Guinea) of being taken aside by a local headman soon after arrival and being told that they will hire a cook and a housekeeper and a laundrymaid. On the mediocrity principle, I think this is how things worked in general. Necessary to the local economy.

JohnBooty 1y ago

Yeah I think this is something that people in countries like the US don't instinctively understand, or at least I didn't. My Filipino friend explained to me that back home, if you have more than a certain amount of money, it's seen as incredibly selfish not to employ people as housekeepers, etc. I'd imagine that's true in a lot of places with income disparity and/or high unemployment numbers. It made a lot of sense to me.

bombcar 1y ago
We have that in the USA for some things - depending on where you live. Some places if you’re the only house on the block who mows their own lawn, you’ll be considered stingy or weird.
magicalhippo 1y ago
My mom visited a professor in an African country a few years back, as part of a project. She told me the professor had a guy employed to open and close the gates for when he drove to work and came home in the evening. That's all the guy did. Full time job. Sounded so preposterous at first, but after thinking a wee bit I came to a similar conclusion that the alternatives might be a lot worse. It was steady income, albeit not a lot.
- lazyasciiart 1y ago
  I assume he also stayed actively present at the gates during the day and/or night and functioned as some kind of watchman?
- ricardobayes 1y ago
  Sounds like any gated community with a security guard post at the entrance.
47282847 1y ago
I understand where this is coming from but that argument simply doesn’t make sense. There are many ways to give back to society; providing low-status jobs is only one of them. And a poor one, because it locks people in that status and heteronomy. Within 10 minutes, anyone can come up with some ideas that would contribute to other people’s development and growth in a more sustainable fashion. It serves other purposes. That narrative is a convenient collective lie, full stop.
- rglullis 1y ago
  > And a poor one, because it locks people in that status and heteronomy What is the current alternative? Are they any better? When I was kid growing up (in Brazil), we had a live-in housekeeper. She moved to São Paulo from some poor rural area in the South of Brazil. As many people from poor rural areas, she was forced to drop out of school on 3rd grade to help her family. If I remember it correctly, she was 21, 22 years old when she first moved in. The agreement was she would get minimum wage + regular benefits + free housing. She would work from ~7:30am until 3pm, get a break in the afternoon and then go to night school from 7 to 10pm. On weekends she was free, so she could either be out with her friends or coming along our weekend camping trips. She worked with us for 5-6 years, finished school, moved out of our home when she got married. Had two daughters, the oldest one just finished college. I know all that because 30+ years later my mom and her still keep in touch. Possibly stories like these are not the majority, but they were pretty common. Today, this would be unthinkable not because economic inequality has diminished, but because whatever we had that passed for "middle class" in Brazil got completely squeezed out by governments over the last 25 years.

cess11 1y ago

Are all jobs and incomes alike?

impossiblefork 1y ago

It doesn't heartless. You can, instead of paying for a housekeeper pay for machines etc. made in the country in question, thus creating technical jobs there that might develop people more than housekeeping does.

bluGill 1y ago
The machines are more expensive than the housekeeper and the housekeeper doesn't have the education to make them. In the US (and Europe...) labor is expensive so it make sense to have technical people design machines.

ta1243 1y ago

Personally I'd hate the lack of privacy