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You really should delete that comment. It's entirely inappropriate. When a woman says no, she means no. End of story.

by chimi 14y ago

gw 14y ago
What a comical overreaction. The history of cinema and literature is replete with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Of course, the over-correcting HN crowd instantly interprets such a comment as the words of a misogynistic psychopath.
- GuiA 14y ago
  >The history of cinema and literature is replete with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Fun fact of the day! Literature and movies are, in fact, not the same as real life!
  - ehsanu1 14y ago
    That snark is not warranted. The point is also not so relevant: we're talking about cultural acceptability, and popular literature/movies are a reflection of that to a large extent. For the record, that particular love story cliche did actually work out for me personally, as the guy. Maybe it's not common, but it's not ridiculously unrealistic.
    - shocks 14y ago
      That particular love story cliche did actually work out for me personally too! :D
      - kika 14y ago
        I got 'no', won her, lost her, won her back and she's my wife for over 20 years. I guess it worked for me too :-)
  - gw 14y ago
    You're right, there is nothing important we can learn from centuries of art -- they don't reflect "real life", where the aforementioned love stories always end with a woman screaming and being torn into. Keep your propeller hat on and your mouse on the refresh button.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Ok, I have a bit of an issue that maybe other people here can give me guidance on. When I decided I wanted to get into this industry, I was a teenager in highschool who figured it all seemed fun and exciting. Creating stuff for a living was awesome, and I wanted to be apart of it. Fast forward a highschool and college diploma, 10 years in the future. I have gotten where I wanted to be, and it is pretty great. Only now though is something else about this industry really starting to sink in for me: the stereotypes. Not the nice "those guys make a lot of money" stereotypes, but rather the vicious kind. I am talking about stereotypes portrayed in media and and embraced by society that suggest anyone who interacts with computers for a living has bad hygiene, long hair, likes fantasy and sci-fi a little too much, is rude or otherwise lacks social skills, etc. A lot of them don't even make any sense; I still can't figure out if all programmers are supposed to be drinking mountain dew all day, or beers. Even the stereotypes that are not seemingly contradictory rarely apply to any particular programmer. I like to think few if any apply to myself... This is just how stereotypes work I guess, and I am learning to deal with it. I can't say it is easy though, and I have altered my behaviour in many cases to distance myself from it. When people at parties ask me, "What do you do?", I no longer actually answer the question. Instead of saying that I am a computer programmer or that I work with computers, I say, "Oh, I work for [company name]". They still know what I really do (if they give it a little thought at least) but the reactions I get are noticeably better. This is all more or less inconsequential though. These are not great hardships; these are "First World problems". What is an issue though are certain very particular stereotypes that our industry has acquired: sexism/misogyny. I don't think it is really important how deserved or not these labels are; but what I do know is that these labels are social kryptonite. They are the things that can end friendships and careers. We hear about these issues in our industry a lot, particularly here on HN. Usually the poster of the story makes it clear that they think these are issues that the industry only has because a few men act this way. Everyone is not guilty, except perhaps so far as they turn a blind eye to it. The apparent idea behind raising awareness for this issue is to get people to speak up when they see it. I understand that, and I understand why it is necessary. I don't like having these labels anywhere near me, that they are applied to my industry at all makes me uncomfortable, but I understand it is important. So what then am I supposed to do when I see comments like the one by isalmon above? I am pretty certain he meant nothing untold by it, I am sure his intentions were all decent. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there. Even so, I can absolutely see how a comment like that could be read as being rather offensive and could help solidify the sexism/misogyny complaints that have been levelled against our industry. It should not be hard to imagine a blog post making it to the top of HNs about a comment exactly like that being overheard at a tech conference. I don't want to burn isalmon for something I am sure he did not mean to do, but I feel that I must do something. So what am I supposed to do?
paul 14y ago
It kind of depends on the question, don't you think?
- microarchitect 14y ago
  I thought the context in which isalmon made their comment was obvious. Are you suggesting that OP wasn't referring to romantic/sexual questions? I doubt it but even if one charitably assumes that the OP meant professional interactions with women, isn't your reply assuming that the isalmon's assertion is a valid one? What reason do you have to believe that women don't mean no when they say "no", especially in a professional context? Do you really subscribe to the (IMHO rather sexist) view that women say no but don't mean (with the implied subtext saying that men don't do this)?
  - einhverfr 14y ago
    But even there, "no means no" really only means "if I tell you to, keep your hands of my body." It is a strong statement in context but it is a narrow one. That isn't incompatible with "no" meaning "maybe later." It doesn't mean "if I tell you I don't want to go out for coffee, don't ever ask me again." And there is no way that asking a woman for a date 100 times and getting rejected is the same as so-called "rape culture." (scare quotes because the term really is over-used. I have no problem with the term applied to some idea that mixed signals means "yes right now" but mixed signals are an inherent part of generating sexual tension and both men and women do this a lot. )
  - dsrguru 14y ago
    I thought it was pretty clear that the great-grandparent post was referring to being asked out, not being raped. In fact, the latter interpretation didn't even cross my mind until I read comments like yours, although I see now how the post is textually ambiguous. But which seems likelier to you: that the poster is reflecting on women playing hard to get--something that most straight guys experience frequently--or that he at best finds rape funny and at worst is advocating it?
huhtenberg 14y ago
When a man says No, it means No. Yes means Yes, and a man never says Maybe. When a woman says No, it means Maybe. Maybe means Yes, and a woman never says Yes. When a politician says Yes, it means Maybe. Maybe means No, and a politician never says No.
- ktizo 14y ago
  a man never says Maybe unless he's absolutely sure that his mates aren't around. Also, do you only know three people?
  - einhverfr 14y ago
    Actually I think that men who are good at seducing women say no and maybe while obviously meaning yes all the time.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      After much consideration, the only stereotype I have found that consistently works in most situations is: People do lots of things. Most of them are crazy. And the more people there are, the more crazy the things are in general.
      - einhverfr 14y ago
        Well, the fact is that human interactions are rarely reductionist or logical. Courtship and dating are especially that way. You have social expectations, hormones, and so forth that together more or less create these elaborate emergant ritualistic dances where nothing is what it seems.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
Actually... When someone says no, they mean no at that instant, but of course they may change their mind later, or be somewhat unsure. Which is why a no can later become a yes, in some cases.
sp4rki 14y ago
I'm guessing you missed the smily face at the end. But even if he was dead drop serious, social reality is that "No" generally means "You're gonna need to try a little harder" this days. "No, I really don't have any interest in getting to know you as you're not my type" is a total negative, but a regular "Sorry no" with a smirk or small smile, is generally females being hard to get. Besides, I really think that "A NO is not really a NO" in HN is most probably not a Julian Assange type of rethoric, but a "I'm gonna try to win the girl over unless she really tells me she's not interested, even if she said NO before while at the same time licking her lips seductively and winking over 9000 times at me...". Being very politically and socially correct this days is really an obstacle while meeting new people or trying to express your opinion. I say keep it fun but courteous, not safe and conservative.

You really should delete that comment. It's entirely inappropriate. When a woman says no, she means no. End of story.

by chimi 14y ago

You really should delete that comment. It's entirely inappropriate. When a woman says no, she means no. End of story.

gw 14y ago

What a comical overreaction. The history of cinema and literature is replete with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Of course, the over-correcting HN crowd instantly interprets such a comment as the words of a misogynistic psychopath.

GuiA 14y ago
>The history of cinema and literature is replete with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Fun fact of the day! Literature and movies are, in fact, not the same as real life!
- ehsanu1 14y ago
  That snark is not warranted. The point is also not so relevant: we're talking about cultural acceptability, and popular literature/movies are a reflection of that to a large extent. For the record, that particular love story cliche did actually work out for me personally, as the guy. Maybe it's not common, but it's not ridiculously unrealistic.
  - shocks 14y ago
    That particular love story cliche did actually work out for me personally too! :D
    - kika 14y ago
      I got 'no', won her, lost her, won her back and she's my wife for over 20 years. I guess it worked for me too :-)
- gw 14y ago
  You're right, there is nothing important we can learn from centuries of art -- they don't reflect "real life", where the aforementioned love stories always end with a woman screaming and being torn into. Keep your propeller hat on and your mouse on the refresh button.
jlgreco 14y ago
Ok, I have a bit of an issue that maybe other people here can give me guidance on. When I decided I wanted to get into this industry, I was a teenager in highschool who figured it all seemed fun and exciting. Creating stuff for a living was awesome, and I wanted to be apart of it. Fast forward a highschool and college diploma, 10 years in the future. I have gotten where I wanted to be, and it is pretty great. Only now though is something else about this industry really starting to sink in for me: the stereotypes. Not the nice "those guys make a lot of money" stereotypes, but rather the vicious kind. I am talking about stereotypes portrayed in media and and embraced by society that suggest anyone who interacts with computers for a living has bad hygiene, long hair, likes fantasy and sci-fi a little too much, is rude or otherwise lacks social skills, etc. A lot of them don't even make any sense; I still can't figure out if all programmers are supposed to be drinking mountain dew all day, or beers. Even the stereotypes that are not seemingly contradictory rarely apply to any particular programmer. I like to think few if any apply to myself... This is just how stereotypes work I guess, and I am learning to deal with it. I can't say it is easy though, and I have altered my behaviour in many cases to distance myself from it. When people at parties ask me, "What do you do?", I no longer actually answer the question. Instead of saying that I am a computer programmer or that I work with computers, I say, "Oh, I work for [company name]". They still know what I really do (if they give it a little thought at least) but the reactions I get are noticeably better. This is all more or less inconsequential though. These are not great hardships; these are "First World problems". What is an issue though are certain very particular stereotypes that our industry has acquired: sexism/misogyny. I don't think it is really important how deserved or not these labels are; but what I do know is that these labels are social kryptonite. They are the things that can end friendships and careers. We hear about these issues in our industry a lot, particularly here on HN. Usually the poster of the story makes it clear that they think these are issues that the industry only has because a few men act this way. Everyone is not guilty, except perhaps so far as they turn a blind eye to it. The apparent idea behind raising awareness for this issue is to get people to speak up when they see it. I understand that, and I understand why it is necessary. I don't like having these labels anywhere near me, that they are applied to my industry at all makes me uncomfortable, but I understand it is important. So what then am I supposed to do when I see comments like the one by isalmon above? I am pretty certain he meant nothing untold by it, I am sure his intentions were all decent. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there. Even so, I can absolutely see how a comment like that could be read as being rather offensive and could help solidify the sexism/misogyny complaints that have been levelled against our industry. It should not be hard to imagine a blog post making it to the top of HNs about a comment exactly like that being overheard at a tech conference. I don't want to burn isalmon for something I am sure he did not mean to do, but I feel that I must do something. So what am I supposed to do?

paul 14y ago

It kind of depends on the question, don't you think?

microarchitect 14y ago
I thought the context in which isalmon made their comment was obvious. Are you suggesting that OP wasn't referring to romantic/sexual questions? I doubt it but even if one charitably assumes that the OP meant professional interactions with women, isn't your reply assuming that the isalmon's assertion is a valid one? What reason do you have to believe that women don't mean no when they say "no", especially in a professional context? Do you really subscribe to the (IMHO rather sexist) view that women say no but don't mean (with the implied subtext saying that men don't do this)?
- einhverfr 14y ago
  But even there, "no means no" really only means "if I tell you to, keep your hands of my body." It is a strong statement in context but it is a narrow one. That isn't incompatible with "no" meaning "maybe later." It doesn't mean "if I tell you I don't want to go out for coffee, don't ever ask me again." And there is no way that asking a woman for a date 100 times and getting rejected is the same as so-called "rape culture." (scare quotes because the term really is over-used. I have no problem with the term applied to some idea that mixed signals means "yes right now" but mixed signals are an inherent part of generating sexual tension and both men and women do this a lot. )
- dsrguru 14y ago
  I thought it was pretty clear that the great-grandparent post was referring to being asked out, not being raped. In fact, the latter interpretation didn't even cross my mind until I read comments like yours, although I see now how the post is textually ambiguous. But which seems likelier to you: that the poster is reflecting on women playing hard to get--something that most straight guys experience frequently--or that he at best finds rape funny and at worst is advocating it?

huhtenberg 14y ago

When a man says No, it means No. Yes means Yes, and a man never says Maybe. When a woman says No, it means Maybe. Maybe means Yes, and a woman never says Yes. When a politician says Yes, it means Maybe. Maybe means No, and a politician never says No.

ktizo 14y ago
a man never says Maybe unless he's absolutely sure that his mates aren't around. Also, do you only know three people?
- einhverfr 14y ago
  Actually I think that men who are good at seducing women say no and maybe while obviously meaning yes all the time.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    After much consideration, the only stereotype I have found that consistently works in most situations is: People do lots of things. Most of them are crazy. And the more people there are, the more crazy the things are in general.
    - einhverfr 14y ago
      Well, the fact is that human interactions are rarely reductionist or logical. Courtship and dating are especially that way. You have social expectations, hormones, and so forth that together more or less create these elaborate emergant ritualistic dances where nothing is what it seems.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago

Actually... When someone says no, they mean no at that instant, but of course they may change their mind later, or be somewhat unsure. Which is why a no can later become a yes, in some cases.

sp4rki 14y ago

I'm guessing you missed the smily face at the end. But even if he was dead drop serious, social reality is that "No" generally means "You're gonna need to try a little harder" this days. "No, I really don't have any interest in getting to know you as you're not my type" is a total negative, but a regular "Sorry no" with a smirk or small smile, is generally females being hard to get. Besides, I really think that "A NO is not really a NO" in HN is most probably not a Julian Assange type of rethoric, but a "I'm gonna try to win the girl over unless she really tells me she's not interested, even if she said NO before while at the same time licking her lips seductively and winking over 9000 times at me...". Being very politically and socially correct this days is really an obstacle while meeting new people or trying to express your opinion. I say keep it fun but courteous, not safe and conservative.