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In general, this is the "wheeling and dealing" and "quid-pro-quo" and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" of creating new laws. The sponsor of the bil

In general, this is the "wheeling and dealing" and "quid-pro-quo" and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" of creating new laws. The sponsor of the bill starts with a clean, straightforward version of their solar bill...but they don't have enough votes. So they start adding in causes from other legislators who want to pass other things (crime, etc.).

kjkjadksj 1y ago
This is known as pork barrel legislation
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > This is known as pork barrel legislation It’s also known as democracy. To my knowledge, it’s how every independent elected legislature works. (For obvious reasons. You’re trading votes and not every constituency gives a shit about the same issues.)
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    > You’re trading votes and not every constituency gives a shit about the same issues. But this is precisely how democracy fails. You have a bill that nobody wants except a special interest group in e.g. Pennsylvania. It can't pass on its own because it's not worth the candle -- Pennsylvania wouldn't even pass it themselves at the state level. But if the federal representative from Pennsylvania can get that bill funded with federal money then they get reelected in Pennsylvania. And likewise for some other bad bills from Florida and Virginia and Arkansas. But then instead of all those bills failing as they deserve to, they get combined together and all pass, because the constituents in any given district are paying more attention to whether their boondoggle gets passed than whether their representative can prevent some other one.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Pennsylvania wouldn't even pass it themselves at the state level. But if the federal representative from Pennsylvania can get that bill funded with federal money then they get reelected in Pennsylvania This is an article about the Pennsylvania legislature. > instead of all those bills failing as they deserve to, they get combined together and all pass, because the constituents in any given district are paying more attention to whether their boondoggle gets passed Yea. If something has concentrated approval and no concentrated opposition, it passes. That’s democracy. You seem to be criticising rushed legislation more than omnibussing.
      - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
        > This is an article about the Pennsylvania legislature. This is an article about the Pennsylvania legislature wrangling over federal funding. And the principle is generic, and the same dynamic applies to districts within a state and state legislatures. If a bill can't pass on its own, why should it pass? > If something has concentrated approval and no concentrated opposition, it passes. That’s democracy. That's the opposite of democracy. If 2% of the population is strongly in favor of something and 98% of the population is weakly opposed and you put it up for a vote, it fails. Which it's supposed to, because "take a pile of money from 98% of people and give it to 2% of people with political connections" is a bad bill. > You seem to be criticising rushed legislation more than omnibussing. What does being rushed have to do with it? The perverse incentives (horse trading otherwise-unpassable bills for each other; disguising votes for bad legislation as "we had to vote for the omnibus") created by omnibussing are the same regardless of how long you take to deliberate.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > If 2% of the population is strongly in favor of something and 98% of the population is weakly opposed and you put it up for a vote, it fails Sure. More common: 2% is strongly in favour and 98% don’t care. > What does being rushed have to do with it? You described to what “ the constituents in any given district are paying more attention.” That’s a function of focus and time.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> sponsor of the bill starts with a clean, straightforward version of their solar bill...but they don't have enough votes. So they start adding in causes from other legislators who want to pass other things It’s also necessary for a legislature representing diverse interests. California, Louisiana, Texas and New York will care about a ports bill. You know who doesn’t? South Dakota and Wyoming. (We don’t export or import much by sea.) But both care deeply about federal lands. So a natural compromise bill is one that tackles both ports and federal lands. Add the rest of the fifty states and the fact that republics going back to Rome featured omnibussing isn’t a surprise.
- whatshisface 1y ago
  Dakota and Wyoming export a very large fraction of their agricultural products by sea.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Dakota and Wyoming export a very large fraction of their agricultural products by sea Few hundred million dollars for Wyoming, and most of that goes to Canada [1]. It’s not an issue of political salience in the state. [1] https://ustr.gov/map/state-benefits/wy https://ustr.gov/map/state-benefits/wy

kjkjadksj 1y ago

This is known as pork barrel legislation

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> This is known as pork barrel legislation It’s also known as democracy. To my knowledge, it’s how every independent elected legislature works. (For obvious reasons. You’re trading votes and not every constituency gives a shit about the same issues.)
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  > You’re trading votes and not every constituency gives a shit about the same issues. But this is precisely how democracy fails. You have a bill that nobody wants except a special interest group in e.g. Pennsylvania. It can't pass on its own because it's not worth the candle -- Pennsylvania wouldn't even pass it themselves at the state level. But if the federal representative from Pennsylvania can get that bill funded with federal money then they get reelected in Pennsylvania. And likewise for some other bad bills from Florida and Virginia and Arkansas. But then instead of all those bills failing as they deserve to, they get combined together and all pass, because the constituents in any given district are paying more attention to whether their boondoggle gets passed than whether their representative can prevent some other one.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Pennsylvania wouldn't even pass it themselves at the state level. But if the federal representative from Pennsylvania can get that bill funded with federal money then they get reelected in Pennsylvania This is an article about the Pennsylvania legislature. > instead of all those bills failing as they deserve to, they get combined together and all pass, because the constituents in any given district are paying more attention to whether their boondoggle gets passed Yea. If something has concentrated approval and no concentrated opposition, it passes. That’s democracy. You seem to be criticising rushed legislation more than omnibussing.
    - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
      > This is an article about the Pennsylvania legislature. This is an article about the Pennsylvania legislature wrangling over federal funding. And the principle is generic, and the same dynamic applies to districts within a state and state legislatures. If a bill can't pass on its own, why should it pass? > If something has concentrated approval and no concentrated opposition, it passes. That’s democracy. That's the opposite of democracy. If 2% of the population is strongly in favor of something and 98% of the population is weakly opposed and you put it up for a vote, it fails. Which it's supposed to, because "take a pile of money from 98% of people and give it to 2% of people with political connections" is a bad bill. > You seem to be criticising rushed legislation more than omnibussing. What does being rushed have to do with it? The perverse incentives (horse trading otherwise-unpassable bills for each other; disguising votes for bad legislation as "we had to vote for the omnibus") created by omnibussing are the same regardless of how long you take to deliberate.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > If 2% of the population is strongly in favor of something and 98% of the population is weakly opposed and you put it up for a vote, it fails Sure. More common: 2% is strongly in favour and 98% don’t care. > What does being rushed have to do with it? You described to what “ the constituents in any given district are paying more attention.” That’s a function of focus and time.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> sponsor of the bill starts with a clean, straightforward version of their solar bill...but they don't have enough votes. So they start adding in causes from other legislators who want to pass other things It’s also necessary for a legislature representing diverse interests. California, Louisiana, Texas and New York will care about a ports bill. You know who doesn’t? South Dakota and Wyoming. (We don’t export or import much by sea.) But both care deeply about federal lands. So a natural compromise bill is one that tackles both ports and federal lands. Add the rest of the fifty states and the fact that republics going back to Rome featured omnibussing isn’t a surprise.

whatshisface 1y ago
Dakota and Wyoming export a very large fraction of their agricultural products by sea.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Dakota and Wyoming export a very large fraction of their agricultural products by sea Few hundred million dollars for Wyoming, and most of that goes to Canada [1]. It’s not an issue of political salience in the state. [1] https://ustr.gov/map/state-benefits/wy https://ustr.gov/map/state-benefits/wy