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> most importantly I learned that I’ll never take “No” for an answer again. There are two types of challenges in life: the first ones are generic and depend ma

• isalmon 14y ago
  Does not work with girls. When they say "No" - that usually means "Yes, but later" or "Yes, but you'll have to work on it". So I would not take "No" for an answer here too ;)
  • chimi 14y ago
    You really should delete that comment. It's entirely inappropriate. When a woman says no, she means no. End of story.
    • gw 14y ago
      What a comical overreaction. The history of cinema and literature is replete with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Of course, the over-correcting HN crowd instantly interprets such a comment as the words of a misogynistic psychopath.
      • GuiA 14y ago
        >The history of cinema and literature is replete with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Fun fact of the day! Literature and movies are, in fact, not the same as real life!
        • ehsanu1 14y ago
          That snark is not warranted. The point is also not so relevant: we're talking about cultural acceptability, and popular literature/movies are a reflection of that to a large extent. For the record, that particular love story cliche did actually work out for me personally, as the guy. Maybe it's not common, but it's not ridiculously unrealistic.
          • shocks 14y ago
            That particular love story cliche did actually work out for me personally too! :D
            • kika 14y ago
              I got 'no', won her, lost her, won her back and she's my wife for over 20 years. I guess it worked for me too :-)
        • gw 14y ago
          You're right, there is nothing important we can learn from centuries of art -- they don't reflect "real life", where the aforementioned love stories always end with a woman screaming and being torn into. Keep your propeller hat on and your mouse on the refresh button.
      • jlgreco 14y ago
        Ok, I have a bit of an issue that maybe other people here can give me guidance on. When I decided I wanted to get into this industry, I was a teenager in highschool who figured it all seemed fun and exciting. Creating stuff for a living was awesome, and I wanted to be apart of it. Fast forward a highschool and college diploma, 10 years in the future. I have gotten where I wanted to be, and it is pretty great. Only now though is something else about this industry really starting to sink in for me: the stereotypes. Not the nice "those guys make a lot of money" stereotypes, but rather the vicious kind. I am talking about stereotypes portrayed in media and and embraced by society that suggest anyone who interacts with computers for a living has bad hygiene, long hair, likes fantasy and sci-fi a little too much, is rude or otherwise lacks social skills, etc. A lot of them don't even make any sense; I still can't figure out if all programmers are supposed to be drinking mountain dew all day, or beers. Even the stereotypes that are not seemingly contradictory rarely apply to any particular programmer. I like to think few if any apply to myself... This is just how stereotypes work I guess, and I am learning to deal with it. I can't say it is easy though, and I have altered my behaviour in many cases to distance myself from it. When people at parties ask me, "What do you do?", I no longer actually answer the question. Instead of saying that I am a computer programmer or that I work with computers, I say, "Oh, I work for [company name]". They still know what I really do (if they give it a little thought at least) but the reactions I get are noticeably better. This is all more or less inconsequential though. These are not great hardships; these are "First World problems". What is an issue though are certain very particular stereotypes that our industry has acquired: sexism/misogyny. I don't think it is really important how deserved or not these labels are; but what I do know is that these labels are social kryptonite. They are the things that can end friendships and careers. We hear about these issues in our industry a lot, particularly here on HN. Usually the poster of the story makes it clear that they think these are issues that the industry only has because a few men act this way. Everyone is not guilty, except perhaps so far as they turn a blind eye to it. The apparent idea behind raising awareness for this issue is to get people to speak up when they see it. I understand that, and I understand why it is necessary. I don't like having these labels anywhere near me, that they are applied to my industry at all makes me uncomfortable, but I understand it is important. So what then am I supposed to do when I see comments like the one by isalmon above? I am pretty certain he meant nothing untold by it, I am sure his intentions were all decent. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there. Even so, I can absolutely see how a comment like that could be read as being rather offensive and could help solidify the sexism/misogyny complaints that have been levelled against our industry. It should not be hard to imagine a blog post making it to the top of HNs about a comment exactly like that being overheard at a tech conference. I don't want to burn isalmon for something I am sure he did not mean to do, but I feel that I must do something. So what am I supposed to do?
    • paul 14y ago
      It kind of depends on the question, don't you think?
      • microarchitect 14y ago
        I thought the context in which isalmon made their comment was obvious. Are you suggesting that OP wasn't referring to romantic/sexual questions? I doubt it but even if one charitably assumes that the OP meant professional interactions with women, isn't your reply assuming that the isalmon's assertion is a valid one? What reason do you have to believe that women don't mean no when they say "no", especially in a professional context? Do you really subscribe to the (IMHO rather sexist) view that women say no but don't mean (with the implied subtext saying that men don't do this)?
        • einhverfr 14y ago
          But even there, "no means no" really only means "if I tell you to, keep your hands of my body." It is a strong statement in context but it is a narrow one. That isn't incompatible with "no" meaning "maybe later." It doesn't mean "if I tell you I don't want to go out for coffee, don't ever ask me again." And there is no way that asking a woman for a date 100 times and getting rejected is the same as so-called "rape culture." (scare quotes because the term really is over-used. I have no problem with the term applied to some idea that mixed signals means "yes right now" but mixed signals are an inherent part of generating sexual tension and both men and women do this a lot. )
        • dsrguru 14y ago
          I thought it was pretty clear that the great-grandparent post was referring to being asked out, not being raped. In fact, the latter interpretation didn't even cross my mind until I read comments like yours, although I see now how the post is textually ambiguous. But which seems likelier to you: that the poster is reflecting on women playing hard to get--something that most straight guys experience frequently--or that he at best finds rape funny and at worst is advocating it?
    • huhtenberg 14y ago
      When a man says No, it means No. Yes means Yes, and a man never says Maybe. When a woman says No, it means Maybe. Maybe means Yes, and a woman never says Yes. When a politician says Yes, it means Maybe. Maybe means No, and a politician never says No.
      • ktizo 14y ago
        a man never says Maybe unless he's absolutely sure that his mates aren't around. Also, do you only know three people?
        • einhverfr 14y ago
          Actually I think that men who are good at seducing women say no and maybe while obviously meaning yes all the time.
          • ktizo 14y ago
            After much consideration, the only stereotype I have found that consistently works in most situations is: People do lots of things. Most of them are crazy. And the more people there are, the more crazy the things are in general.
            • einhverfr 14y ago
              Well, the fact is that human interactions are rarely reductionist or logical. Courtship and dating are especially that way. You have social expectations, hormones, and so forth that together more or less create these elaborate emergant ritualistic dances where nothing is what it seems.
    • deleted 14y ago
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    • TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
      Actually... When someone says no, they mean no at that instant, but of course they may change their mind later, or be somewhat unsure. Which is why a no can later become a yes, in some cases.
    • sp4rki 14y ago
      I'm guessing you missed the smily face at the end. But even if he was dead drop serious, social reality is that "No" generally means "You're gonna need to try a little harder" this days. "No, I really don't have any interest in getting to know you as you're not my type" is a total negative, but a regular "Sorry no" with a smirk or small smile, is generally females being hard to get. Besides, I really think that "A NO is not really a NO" in HN is most probably not a Julian Assange type of rethoric, but a "I'm gonna try to win the girl over unless she really tells me she's not interested, even if she said NO before while at the same time licking her lips seductively and winking over 9000 times at me...". Being very politically and socially correct this days is really an obstacle while meeting new people or trying to express your opinion. I say keep it fun but courteous, not safe and conservative.
  • GuiA 14y ago
    You do realize that some use this exact argument to justify date rape, right?
    • rodly 14y ago
      He clearly didn't mean it in a sexual context. Your sarcasm and cynicism is detestable.
      • underwater 14y ago
        It was in reply to the comment "Impressing girl X strong enough to kiss you [...]", which would suggest he did.
        • deleted 14y ago
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        • deleted 14y ago
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        • einhverfr 14y ago
          Still, if persistence to get a "yes" is to be equated with rape, then this ought to be really offensive to all rape victims out there because it totally trivializes the crimes perpetrated against them. "No means no" means everyone has a right to control bodily contact. It does not make asking a girl out for coffee the 100th time and getting shot down the equivalent of rape. It does not mean taking that as "try harder" (however stupid that may seem to be in context) to be the equivalent of rape. It is only when non-consented bodily contact is at issue that any equivalence can be drawn.
          • underwater 14y ago
            I agree that blanket rules are dumb. However The OP's original advice is dangerous because those who don't know any better could misinterpret what he is saying. It's better to start from the default safe postition of "no means no" and work backwards rather than listening to random strangers of the internet who tell you otherwise.
  • jhuckestein 14y ago
    It's not what you say, it's how you say it. This is a well-researched aspect of human communication. The internet desensitizes people in that respect because nothing is ever said, it's just written.
  • mekoka 14y ago
    I wouldn't say that it usually means, but rather that it could mean "Yes, but later". Usually, "No" means "No".
    • shawnz 14y ago
      To generalize the point a little bit, I'd say that "no" can sometimes mean "maybe, but you'll need to increase my confidence first". This seems to apply to OP's original dilemma too.
    • einhverfr 14y ago
      I think the fundamental problem is that everyone (men and women) use mixed signals to create sexual tension. There is simply nothing wrong with that. It's partly about keeping the other person guessing as to what you will be doing next and this is what it is about. People drink as part of courtship. People use no to mean maybe as part of courtship. "No means no" means "everyone gets veto power over actual contact." It does not mean "no" applies to anything more than the present moment. Otherwise every aspect of courtship on both sides (men and women) goes out the window.
      • masterzora 14y ago
        No, no, no. If you are told "no" by someone who actually means it and decide that this really means "I should keep trying" it means you are being totally creepy by disrespecting their clearly-stated wishes and may well be crossing the line into sexual harassment. "No means no" does not apply strictly to contact only.
        • einhverfr 14y ago
          "No, no, no. If you are told "no" by someone who actually means it" That suggests that it is not actually meant that way at least a significant portion of the time, correct? The problem of sexual harassment though is that it is usually something that is going to hit the employer (or public accommodations provider) before it hits the individual engaging in the offending behavior (because of standards like "severe" and "pervasive" which often involve multiple actors to prove). So it is not usually a personal cause of action although that may vary in some states.
  • depr 14y ago
    Oh no! Women are being attacked on the internet, to the postmobile! The replies to this post are hilarious and sickening at the same time. Whenever the social/cultural accepted image of women is questioned, everyone gets into this mode of "must defend women!". Just look at the amount of replies and rage this reply has caused. Any other undesired reply would have simply been downmodded, but when WOMEN are being slandered, (oh the humanity,) you just can't leave it alone (and of course, rape is brought up). Not only are you not simply downmodding a comment that you feel is inappropriate and then leaving the post alone, a civilized debate is apparently also out of the question. If the post said something like "we should legalize guns in country x", we would not see a reply saying "delete your post, it's inappropriate" (it might've started an argument, it would probably just be downmodded). On any other topic a different opinion would be accepted, but on this subject you're just not allowed to even joke about it, let alone have a conflicting view. The White Knight in Shining Armour mentality is so deeply ingrained that all politeness, reason, and guidelines go overboard when the socially acceptable image of women is questioned, even on the supposedly enlightened board that is Hackernews. Next time when a reply like this comes up, no need to get out your horse and armour, just downmod. If you feel the need to feel all Just and Righteous in defending the Female Honour, please start your Round Table elsewhere. These replies have done more to derail the thread than isalmon's original comment.
    • deleted 14y ago
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    • einhverfr 14y ago
      On top of this, consider that sexual interactions thrive on ambiguity and mixed signals and that both men and women play on this and use this to create sexual tension. "No means no" is a very narrow statement and is not at all incompatible with the idea that "No means not right now, maybe later, or keep trying." It simply means that as far as one's bodily autonomy, one has veto power over any actual contact. So "no means no" does not mean you have to take no for an answer even there. It does not even mean women want no to be taken for an answer. It just means certain specific limits are to be accepted.
    • reinhardt 14y ago
  • gfodor 14y ago
    10/10 troll. hats off.
  • marcamillion 14y ago
    Yes and no. Sometimes they mean "hell no", sometimes they mean..."I am shy, let me see if you really are interested." That's what happened with me & my wife. We went to a co-ed camp, and she was one of (if not) the 'hottest' girls at camp. Being pursued by many potential suitors and I had a leg up. One of her new 'girlfriends' was a long time 'girl friend' of mine. So my friend was telling me that she thinks she likes me, even though she would ask her and she would say 'No'. She (my wife) was giving me subtle signals here and there - but she was giving everyone else no signals at all. She was telling everyone that she didn't like me though, and many other girls actually tried to actively discourage me from pursuing her. I was 15, and relatively innocent at the time - so I wasn't pressuring her from a sexual perspective. It was all innocent. Suffice it to say, after coming back from that weeklong camp, we started dating about a week later. As of tomorrow, we will be married for 7 years and together for 13 years, with 2 kids and 1 on the way...and we're both still happy. So, in short...know when to hold them, know when to fold em.