6 ms·

I don't think this answers my questions. Anti-Zionism is about the idea that there should be no state of Israel. How should this be achieved without war and a

by bernb 1y ago

I don't think this answers my questions. Anti-Zionism is about the idea that there should be no state of Israel. How should this be achieved without war and a genocide-like event? What are people that are in favor of Anti-Zionism specifically hoping for?

ethbr1 1y ago
Israel gives the Palestinians a contiguous state with sea access is exchange for a mutual recognition of borders. The root problem that anti-Zionists have in practice (rather than the "no state of Israel" loonies) is Palestinians having a viable state (economically and territorially). Both of those are things Israel (with the help of Arab funding) could fix tomorrow, if its current government weren't kowtowing to its ultra-right / illegal settler minority for political reasons.
- bernb 1y ago
  I can totally see how the settlements and politics of Israel in the westbank would prevent a viable Palestinian state. I know less about Gaza (haven't been there to begin with), but my impression is that Gaza had much more freedom within it's borders. It's unfortunate that the people there voted for a terror organization back then that as their very first act murdered the opposition and has no interest at all to work for the benefit of the Palestinian people. Recognition of borders by Hamas will obviously never happen, so as long as they rule in Gaza or might potentially rule in Gaza or the westbank in the future it would be way too much risk for Israel to expose their borders.
  - computerthings 1y ago
    [dead]
  - spwa4 1y ago
    I think everyone forgets just how much money Palestinians receive, effectively because of the war with Israel (or they wouldn't receive anywhere near this amount without that war). This guarantees the war continues. None of the states in the middle east around Israel are anywhere close to Palestine, economically. What Palestinians are receiving amounts to $1000/person (or $13000/person/yr) for nothing. That doesn't include payments from the middle eastern countries like Qatar, which reportedly are enough to make all Palestinian government leaders billionaires, as well as run both hamas and the PA. If Palestinians needed to support their own economy, well, let's look at the neighboring countries: Egypt: 3,457.46 GDP/capita/yr Jordan: 4,455.51 GDP/capita/yr Lebanon: 3,654.36 GDP/capita/yr (This is NOT income, it's GDP, let's generously say average income would be half that) So napkin math: peace with Israel would cost Palestinians 7/8th or 87.5% of the average income of a Palestinian. Well, let's say they wouldn't lose all aid. Let's say it would cost them 75% of their income. It would be a worse economic disaster for them than WW2 was in Europe. Frankly it's so much of a loss that I do actually kind of believe Israel's government also wants the war: the business they get from Palestinians is still between 15 and 20% of Israel's GDP and would entirely disappear if there was peace. But the incentive for war is far stronger for Palestinians. Currently, despite everything, Palestine is ahead of Eastern Europe in economic development (by which I mean "go into a random apartment, what would you find?"). You would destroy that. Frankly, I find it hard to believe Palestinians would even match Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan in terms of economy any time soon. I think if you asked Palestinians if they wanted war, victims and all, in trade for keeping what they have (as opposed to losing 75%), they would want war. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's not exactly an exception. If, say, the French had the option to 4x their average income in trade for war, they'd start a war. No doubt in my mind about that.
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      You have to discount Gaza's economic development by needing to rebuild their infrastructure every few years and a complete blockade since 2007. Why is there so much per capita aid to Gaza? Because Israel prevents them from having a functioning economy. Why does Israel prevent that? Because then it would have to bargain with a stronger counterparty for an ultimate resolution. Until Israel realizes that it either needs to (a) kill every man, woman, and child in Gaza or (b) grant them a functioning, independent state, the wheel will keep on turning. Israel represses and provokes Palestinians; Palestinians lash out; Israel cracks down militarily until international pressure forces them to stop; GOTO 10.
      - spwa4 1y ago
        [flagged]
        ethbr1 1y ago
        > I'm sure just like everything in your world this is a Jewish conspiracy... Try and avoid assumptions and ad hom's, if you want someone to read the rest of what you wrote.
        spwa4 1y ago
        [flagged]
        ethbr1 1y ago
        holds up mirror If you're ready to have a conversation, I'm game. If you want to pathos-bait (or even worse, can't tell that you're doing it), then I've got more interesting people to talk to.
        spwa4 1y ago
        Anyone who reads your initial comment will agree that EVERY point you made boils down to "this happened, but it's a Jewish conspiracy". You barely mention Palestinians.

by bernb 1y ago

ethbr1 1y ago

Israel gives the Palestinians a contiguous state with sea access is exchange for a mutual recognition of borders. The root problem that anti-Zionists have in practice (rather than the "no state of Israel" loonies) is Palestinians having a viable state (economically and territorially). Both of those are things Israel (with the help of Arab funding) could fix tomorrow, if its current government weren't kowtowing to its ultra-right / illegal settler minority for political reasons.

bernb 1y ago
I can totally see how the settlements and politics of Israel in the westbank would prevent a viable Palestinian state. I know less about Gaza (haven't been there to begin with), but my impression is that Gaza had much more freedom within it's borders. It's unfortunate that the people there voted for a terror organization back then that as their very first act murdered the opposition and has no interest at all to work for the benefit of the Palestinian people. Recognition of borders by Hamas will obviously never happen, so as long as they rule in Gaza or might potentially rule in Gaza or the westbank in the future it would be way too much risk for Israel to expose their borders.
- computerthings 1y ago
  [dead]
- spwa4 1y ago
  I think everyone forgets just how much money Palestinians receive, effectively because of the war with Israel (or they wouldn't receive anywhere near this amount without that war). This guarantees the war continues. None of the states in the middle east around Israel are anywhere close to Palestine, economically. What Palestinians are receiving amounts to $1000/person (or $13000/person/yr) for nothing. That doesn't include payments from the middle eastern countries like Qatar, which reportedly are enough to make all Palestinian government leaders billionaires, as well as run both hamas and the PA. If Palestinians needed to support their own economy, well, let's look at the neighboring countries: Egypt: 3,457.46 GDP/capita/yr Jordan: 4,455.51 GDP/capita/yr Lebanon: 3,654.36 GDP/capita/yr (This is NOT income, it's GDP, let's generously say average income would be half that) So napkin math: peace with Israel would cost Palestinians 7/8th or 87.5% of the average income of a Palestinian. Well, let's say they wouldn't lose all aid. Let's say it would cost them 75% of their income. It would be a worse economic disaster for them than WW2 was in Europe. Frankly it's so much of a loss that I do actually kind of believe Israel's government also wants the war: the business they get from Palestinians is still between 15 and 20% of Israel's GDP and would entirely disappear if there was peace. But the incentive for war is far stronger for Palestinians. Currently, despite everything, Palestine is ahead of Eastern Europe in economic development (by which I mean "go into a random apartment, what would you find?"). You would destroy that. Frankly, I find it hard to believe Palestinians would even match Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan in terms of economy any time soon. I think if you asked Palestinians if they wanted war, victims and all, in trade for keeping what they have (as opposed to losing 75%), they would want war. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's not exactly an exception. If, say, the French had the option to 4x their average income in trade for war, they'd start a war. No doubt in my mind about that.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    You have to discount Gaza's economic development by needing to rebuild their infrastructure every few years and a complete blockade since 2007. Why is there so much per capita aid to Gaza? Because Israel prevents them from having a functioning economy. Why does Israel prevent that? Because then it would have to bargain with a stronger counterparty for an ultimate resolution. Until Israel realizes that it either needs to (a) kill every man, woman, and child in Gaza or (b) grant them a functioning, independent state, the wheel will keep on turning. Israel represses and provokes Palestinians; Palestinians lash out; Israel cracks down militarily until international pressure forces them to stop; GOTO 10.
    - spwa4 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - ethbr1 1y ago
        > I'm sure just like everything in your world this is a Jewish conspiracy... Try and avoid assumptions and ad hom's, if you want someone to read the rest of what you wrote.
        spwa4 1y ago
        [flagged]
        ethbr1 1y ago
        holds up mirror If you're ready to have a conversation, I'm game. If you want to pathos-bait (or even worse, can't tell that you're doing it), then I've got more interesting people to talk to.
        spwa4 1y ago
        Anyone who reads your initial comment will agree that EVERY point you made boils down to "this happened, but it's a Jewish conspiracy". You barely mention Palestinians.