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The trouble is that Israel-Palestine is a proxy war with spiritual implications. Israel is composed of people who just went through a legitimate holocaust and

The trouble is that Israel-Palestine is a proxy war with spiritual implications. Israel is composed of people who just went through a legitimate holocaust and genocide themselves. Therefore it seems logical to most people that they'd be ready and willing to exact vengeance in the measure it was dished out to them. Furthermore, their Tanakh (our Old Testament) details the battles between the Children of Israel and their neighbors, which were murderous, atrocious, and genocidal on both sides. Why should modern warfare be any different? Conversely, Palestine is composed of an amalgam of pan-Arabic people and, correct me if I'm wrong, no particularly deep roots in terms of common ethnic descent, or claim to such land or territory, since it was British until recently. Therefore, the Palestinians are a stand-in for all the Arab world, and by proxy, we're fighting all those Arab terrorists by targeting Palestine, and vice versa. Now the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews. They really make no bones about their desire to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth. By proxy they did a pretty good job during WWII -- the Third Reich, being the enemy of their enemy, was greatly pleasing to the Arab world. So the Middle East has two little Davids fighting each other on behalf of their respective Goliaths. Israel's campaign has finally ramped up to the point where the rest of the world cries injustice and genocide and enough. But Israel has vowed "never again [to us]" while living under very real and existential threat that the entire Arab world would very much do it again to them, if they had half the chance. So if the West puts the brakes on Israel, then we're letting the other Goliath's David win, and nobody around here wants that.

mandmandam 1y ago
[flagged]
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  “ Palestinians didn't do the holocaust. On the contrary, they took Jewish people in - on condition that no one would try and form an ethno-state” Before World War II, the land was British Mandate Palestine, which was previously part of the Ottoman Empire. It was a land with a mixed population and growing nationalist movements among both Jews and Arabs. Balfour Declaration 1917 “His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object..." Under League of Nations, there was no explicit agreement that Jewish people could only come if they never formed a state. 1920s-30s more immigration occurred and clearly Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state. In 1939, before Holocaust, Britain severely limited Jewish immigration stating in a White Paper, “Palestine would not become a Jewish state”. It limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 over 5 years. Fast forward to 1947 post WW2, Britain became increasingly concerned about tensions between Arabs and Jews. There became a strong demand for a Jewish state amongst Zionists it was referred to the United Nations in 1947. UN partition plan divided Palestine into three parts. Jews accepted even though it had compromises and Palestinians rejected. War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. After the Arab-Israeli War, Jordan occupied the West Bank, Egypt took Gaza, Israel expanded its borders. No Palestinian state was created. Palestine identity started getting created in the 20th century. It had been known as Palestine for millennia and ruled by various empires over hundreds of years. “ Palestinians – as well as other Levantine people – are primarily descended from ancient Levantines who inhabited what is today Israel and Palestine, at least 3700 years ago” It’s complicated and there is a lot of nuance. Many cultural groups trace their origins there including Jews who consider themselves descendants of ancient Israelites.
  - dunekid 1y ago
    >War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. Please do mention the Dalet Plan, the massacres of the Palestinians by Zionists, and how the war broke out. Also killing UN mediators by Zionists would something to complete the history lesson, rather than Palestinians rejected. Wow, who would have thought people would reject taking their land and giving it to somebody else! And also mention the rejection by Zionists of the count Bernadotte's plan. So the Zionists just killed the one who made the plan, so whoever came after him just gave more land to Zionists.
    - firesteelrain 1y ago
      Your response has some factual things, questionable framing and rhetoric vs history. Please fact check and correct yourself on some of your points
no_moresecrets 1y ago
> the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews The Arab world historically (specifically the Palestinians) has never been the enemy of the Jews. It has always been other Europeans that have been the enemy of the Jews. Why should the Palestinians pay reparations under the form of genocide for what the Europeans did to the Jews?
ethbr1 1y ago
> Now the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews. They really make no bones about their desire to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth. You missed the various normalization treaties over the years: - 1979 Egypt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_peace_treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_peace_t... - 1994 Jordan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Jordan_peace_treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Jordan_peace_... - 2020 Bahrain and UAE https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords - 2020 Morocco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Morocco_normalization_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Morocco_norma... With Syria potentially being added, in return for sanctions relief. And Saudi Arabia gradually inching towards recognition.
immibis 1y ago
> Israel is composed of people who just went through a legitimate holocaust and genocide themselves. This gives them a free pass to commit a second one, right? Also, no it's not. That's just not true. Israel is not composed of survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. The youngest survivors of the Nazi Holocaust are over 80 years old now. Is Israel composed of people over 80 years old? And is 80 years ago a time that "just" happened?

mandmandam 1y ago

[flagged]

firesteelrain 1y ago
“ Palestinians didn't do the holocaust. On the contrary, they took Jewish people in - on condition that no one would try and form an ethno-state” Before World War II, the land was British Mandate Palestine, which was previously part of the Ottoman Empire. It was a land with a mixed population and growing nationalist movements among both Jews and Arabs. Balfour Declaration 1917 “His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object..." Under League of Nations, there was no explicit agreement that Jewish people could only come if they never formed a state. 1920s-30s more immigration occurred and clearly Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state. In 1939, before Holocaust, Britain severely limited Jewish immigration stating in a White Paper, “Palestine would not become a Jewish state”. It limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 over 5 years. Fast forward to 1947 post WW2, Britain became increasingly concerned about tensions between Arabs and Jews. There became a strong demand for a Jewish state amongst Zionists it was referred to the United Nations in 1947. UN partition plan divided Palestine into three parts. Jews accepted even though it had compromises and Palestinians rejected. War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. After the Arab-Israeli War, Jordan occupied the West Bank, Egypt took Gaza, Israel expanded its borders. No Palestinian state was created. Palestine identity started getting created in the 20th century. It had been known as Palestine for millennia and ruled by various empires over hundreds of years. “ Palestinians – as well as other Levantine people – are primarily descended from ancient Levantines who inhabited what is today Israel and Palestine, at least 3700 years ago” It’s complicated and there is a lot of nuance. Many cultural groups trace their origins there including Jews who consider themselves descendants of ancient Israelites.
- dunekid 1y ago
  >War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. Please do mention the Dalet Plan, the massacres of the Palestinians by Zionists, and how the war broke out. Also killing UN mediators by Zionists would something to complete the history lesson, rather than Palestinians rejected. Wow, who would have thought people would reject taking their land and giving it to somebody else! And also mention the rejection by Zionists of the count Bernadotte's plan. So the Zionists just killed the one who made the plan, so whoever came after him just gave more land to Zionists.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    Your response has some factual things, questionable framing and rhetoric vs history. Please fact check and correct yourself on some of your points

no_moresecrets 1y ago

> the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews The Arab world historically (specifically the Palestinians) has never been the enemy of the Jews. It has always been other Europeans that have been the enemy of the Jews. Why should the Palestinians pay reparations under the form of genocide for what the Europeans did to the Jews?

ethbr1 1y ago

> Now the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews. They really make no bones about their desire to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth. You missed the various normalization treaties over the years: - 1979 Egypt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_peace_treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_peace_t... - 1994 Jordan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Jordan_peace_treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Jordan_peace_... - 2020 Bahrain and UAE https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords - 2020 Morocco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Morocco_normalization_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Morocco_norma... With Syria potentially being added, in return for sanctions relief. And Saudi Arabia gradually inching towards recognition.

immibis 1y ago

> Israel is composed of people who just went through a legitimate holocaust and genocide themselves. This gives them a free pass to commit a second one, right? Also, no it's not. That's just not true. Israel is not composed of survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. The youngest survivors of the Nazi Holocaust are over 80 years old now. Is Israel composed of people over 80 years old? And is 80 years ago a time that "just" happened?